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stupid me, it didn't dawn on me that the Ellen Hartopp in the 1911 census I posted at the start of all that was Ethel Maud's mother Ellen!

certainly that was she; not at all an unusual situation, where a woman and her children are living with a man (and sometimes his children) and the census shows them as unrelated as in the 1901 census posted

they may well have represented themselves socially as a married couple ... as this couple were doing in the census by 1911 :-)

Ellen Lark in the 1881 England Census
Name:Ellen Lark
Age:17
Estimated birth year:abt 1864
Relationship to Head:Servant (Employee)
Gender:Female
Where born:Yarmouth
Civil Parish:Newington
County/Island:London
Country:England
Street address:8 Grosvenor Place
Occupation:Servant Domestic
Registration district:St Saviour Southwark
Sub registration district:St Peter Walworth

Household Members

George Hook 56
M.A. Hook 22
Ellen Lark 17
(not transcribed)


??

Ellen Lark in the 1871 England Census
Name:Ellen Lark
Age:6
Estimated birth year:abt 1865
Relation:Daughter (Child)
Father's name:William Lark
Mother's name:Ellen Lark
Gender:Female
Civil Parish:St Georges Ward
Ecclesiastical parish:Norwich
County/Island:Norfolk
Country:England
Registration district:Yarmouth
Sub-registration district:Yarmouth Southern

Household Members:

William Lark 42 (Fish Monger)
Ellen Lark 32
Hannah Lark 12
Edgar Lark 11
Mary Lark 7
Ellen Lark 6
Pheba Lark 5
Barbara Lark 2
Jane Lark 4 Years, 1 Month

Marriages Sep 1883 (>99)
-------------------------------------------------------------
LARK Mary St. Saviour 1d 13
Shepherd George Henry St. Saviour 1d 13

(Sister of Ellen above, from below old 'Thread')

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/trying_to_find/thread/1093403

Chris :)


MANSLAUGHTER CHARGE AGAINST HUSBAND.

“... returned against Frederick Hartopp by a Coroner's jury at the London Hospital, where an inquest was held on the man's wife Ellen Hartopp. of Ford Road, Bow. Maud Towke said deceased was her mother, who had twice been married. On Saturday last, shortly after ...”

07 September 1912 - Dundee Courier - Dundee, Angus, Scotland


Deaths Sep 1912 (>99%)
-------------------------------------------------------
HARTOP Ellen 47 Whitechapel 1c 289


(noticed below)

Burial
County Norfolk
Place Great Yarmouth
Church St Nicholas
RegisterNumber 1292
BurialDate 27 Jan 1890
Forename William George
Surname FOWKE
Age 1y3m
Abode Row


http://www.freereg.org.uk/cgi/Search.pl


Births Dec 1888 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------
FOWKE William George Poplar 1c 666


Deaths Mar 1890 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------
Fowke William George 1 Yarmouth 4b 2

http://www.blackkalendar.nl/content.php?key=10595


Frederick Hartop (Jail)

Age: 42 (43 after sentence)

Sex: male

Crime: manslaughter

Date Of Sentence: 10 Sep 1912 (for 1 years)

End Of Full Sentence: 10 Jan 1913

Place: unknown

Source: http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?id=t19120910-70-of

HARTOP, Frederick (42, glass severer), was indicted for and charged on Coroner's inquisition with the manslaughter of Ellen Hartop.

Prisoner pleaded guilty.

On September 1 prisoner, during a drunken quarrel, struck deceased (with whom he had lived for 18 years and who had eight children by him) a violent blow; she had three ribs fractured and died two days afterwards. The post mortem examination showed that all the woman's organs were healthy except the lungs; the ribs having been broken had penetrated into the pleura; there was blood in the pleural cavity; this had set up an acute stage of bronchial pneumonia; death had no doubt been accelerated by the fracture of the ribs. Prisoner bore an excellent general character and had been kind to his wife except when in drink.

Sentence: Four months' imprisonment, second division.

Old Bailey Proceedings Online (www.oldbaileyonline.org, version 7.0, 24 December 2012), September 1912, trial of HARTOP, Frederick (42, glass severer) (t19120910-70).

?????????? Frederick's death


England & Wales, Death Index, 1916-2007

Name: Frederick Hartopp
Birth Date: abt 1871
Date of Registration: Jun 1925
Age at Death: 54
Registration district: Bethnal Green
Inferred County: London
Volume: 1c
Page: 103

Burial Register summary

Hartopp Frederick
Burial date 16 April 1925
Authority Manor Park
Location Manor Park Cemetery (Newham)


https://www.deceasedonline.com/

Chris :)

BTW ............... the original on the Old Bailey site does say Frederick was a glass silverer ..... which fits with the 1901 and 1911 censuses.

omg what an outcome

Ellen was Nicola's Uncle John's grandmother? how awfully sad

'Prisoner bore an excellent general character and had been kind to his wife except when in drink.'

yes, that is always the sign of 'an excellent general character' ... being a drunk who beat his wife

alcoholism is an awful thing ... often most awful for the wife and children of the alcoholic, a situation in which they were all too commonly trapped in those days

Gosh!!

I had to read back the last posts a few times for it all to sink in.

How terribly sad for poor Ellen.....and how very devastating for her children. :-\

I am lost for words... Not what I was expecting when I set out to find something to talk about with uncle John.
After my conversation with him on tuesday, It all makes a lot of sense that his mother was very protective of John and siblings. I will spare him this info on my next visit, he clearly knows very little about his mothers family and it will have to stay that way.
Thanks all for the research I will record it all and share it with his son one day.
Maybe researching his father Arthur Marsh will hopefully provide a more pleasant conversation.

I have search the newspaper article that Chris found but can't view the whole page.
Does anyone have access to 07 September 1912 - Dundee Courier - Dundee, Angus, Scotland ? Also wondering why it was reported in a Scottish paper when the manslaughter took place in London?
I recently found a ancestor who was jailed for 1 year for stealing a horse in 1921, how on earth did this man get the same for killing his wife!!!

Hello Nicola

The manslaughter would have been very widely reported, it just so happens that those Scottish newspapers are the ones that have so far made their way into the British Newspaper Archive.

If Hartopp had killed another man he would probably have got much longer but an ordinary woman's life back then held much less value.

Here's a link to the full article in the Dundee Courier:

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/keepsafe/asset/details/17248652

and another brief one in the Leicester Chronicle 4 Sep 1912:

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/keepsafe/asset/details/17248654

13 September 1912 - Sheffield Evening Telegraph - Sheffield, South Yorkshire

MAN KILLS WOMAN HE WAS FOND OF

(By our private wire)

Frederick Hartop, 42, glass serverer, a man of excellent character, pleaded guilty at the Old Bailey to-day to the manslaughter of Ellen Ford, the woman whom he had lived for 18 years.
The evidence was to the effect that the prisoner and the deceased, who lived at Bow, had a quarrel, and the man hit her in the ribs with his fist. The result was that three ribs were fractured, and as the direct result of the blow she died in hospital two days later.
It was stated that the prisoner was deeply attached to the deceased. and the judge said that her loss would be a great and abiding grief to him. His Lordship sentenced prisoner to four months in the second division.

---------------------------------------------------------------

They lived in "Ford Road" so I think that is the muddle as to her name being stated as Ellen "Ford".

Prickles.

Can be very surprising what turns up in Newspapers, always worth a look!.

Apart from Find My Past, and Genes, there is below, subscription also needed.

http://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/


Chris :)

(MC, your use of 'Keepsafe', comes in handy, lol, sends a Thankyou to you)