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Hi. I am trying to get info on a relative who, as the family story goes, stole a loaf of bread for her sisters hungry children and was punished by the Courts to being sent to Canada. Needless to say, she never returned but someone caught sight of a letter she sent home during the War, asking after everyone and saying that she had got married. This happened a good few years before I was born (1932) and there is no one left (before me) that can throw any light on this event. The name of the girl was Ann Casson. I believe she was the youngest child of James and Ann Casson.. Archive ref. RG13, Folio 87, Page 36, Piece Number 365. They had 6 other children.. Matilda B1881, Elizabeth B1883, Charles B1885, Henry B1887, George B1890, Amelia B1892, Polly B1892 (Twins).. Ann must have been born after all these.. I have searched Child Migrant Trust, The Immigrant Ancestors Project, British Home Children.com and found a Miss A Casson Age 23 (Birth Year 1896). Ship Name Scandinavian, Departure Year 1919. Liverpool - Saint John NB Canada.. Is it her ? and what do I do now ??

Is this your Casson family in 1901??

There is no Ann on it

1901 Census

Name: James Casson
Age: 50
Estimated birth year: abt 1851
Relation to Head: Head
Gender: Male
Spouse: Ann Casson
Birth Place: Boro, London, England
Civil Parish: Southwark St George the Martyr
Search Photos: Search for 'Southwark St George the Martyr' in the UK City, Town and Village Photos collection
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mary Magdalene Southwark
County/Island: London
Country: England

Registration district: Southwark
Sub-registration district: Kent Road
ED, institution, or vessel: 15

Piece: 365
Folio: 87
Page Number: 35
Household schedule number: 163

James Casson 50 Brush Hawker
Matilda Casson 20 b.ca 1881, Bermondsey, London
Elizabeth Casson 18 b.ca 1883, Bermondsey
Charles Casson 16 b.ca 1885, Bermondsey
Henry Casson 14 b.ca 1887, Bermondsey
George Casson 11 b.ca 1890, Bermondsey
Milly Casson 9 b.ca 1892, Bermondsey
Polly Casson 9 b.ca 1892, Bermondsey
Ann Casson 49 b.ca 1852, Bermondsey

Address:- 2 Hartington House, Mardyke St

Joonie .................

I was struggling as well, but did manage to find Matilda in 1901 ............... with no younger child Ann

This looks like James in 1911 ......... a widower living with 2 of his sons

1911 Census

Name: James Casson
Age in 1911: 59
Estimated birth year: abt 1852
Relation to Head: Head
Gender: Male
Birth Place: Southwark, London, England
Civil Parish: Newington St Mary
Search Photos: Search for 'Newington St Mary' in the UK City, Town and Village Photos collection
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street address: 22 Inville Road, Walworth
Marital Status: Widowed
Occupation: TRAVELLER PAINTERS BRUSHER
Registration district: Southwark
Registration District Number: 23
Sub-registration district: Newington South
ED, institution, or vessel: 17
Piece: 1835

James Casson 59
Charles Casson 26
Harry Casson 24


On the image he had written (but then it had been crossed out) married 35 years, 14 children born, 10 still living, 4 died

okay here is the family in 1901 in Southwark St George the Martyr

but no daughter Ann

James Casson 50 brush hawker
Matilda Casson 20
Elizabeth Casson 18
Charles Casson 16
Henry Casson 14
George Casson 11
Milly Casson 9
Polly Casson 9
Ann Casson 49 wife


edit, Sylvia got there ahead of me - I was looking for earlier censuses to no avail :-)

This child could in fact be the A Casson on the passenger list


1901 Census

Name: Annie S Carson
[Annie S Casson]
Age: 6
Estimated birth year: abt 1895
Relation to Head: Daughter
Gender: Female
Father: Jesse H Carson
Mother: Annie E Carson
Birth Place: London, England
Civil Parish: Ecclesall Bierlow
Search Photos: Search for 'Ecclesall Bierlow' in the UK City, Town and Village Photos collection
Ecclesiastical parish: St Barnabas
Town: Sheffield
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England

Registration district: Ecclesall Bierlow
Sub-registration district: Ecclesall Bierlow
ED, institution, or vessel: 57

Piece: 4355
Folio: 144
Page Number: 21
Household schedule number: 134

Jesse H Carson 42
Annie E Carson 39
Annie S Carson 6
Ivy E Carson 4
Lamb Shirtcliffe 63


This is the reason for the correction for the name, posted by an ancestry member in 2008 ..............

Casson rather than Carson

Correction due to an error in transcription.

Surname Casson known from daughter's birth certificate

????? a possible "Ann"

England & Wales, FreeBMD Birth Index, 1837-1915

Name: Ivy Ann Casson
Registration Year: 1908
Registration Quarter: Oct-Nov-Dec
Registration district: Camberwell
Parishes for this Registration District: View Ecclesiastical Parishes associated with this Registration District
Inferred County: London
Volume: 1d
Page: 864


but NOT the child of James and Ann


1911 Census

Name: Ivy Casson
Age in 1911: 2
Estimated birth year: abt 1909
Relation to Head: Daughter
Gender: Female
Birth Place: London, United Kingdom
Civil Parish: Camberwell
Search Photos: Search for 'Camberwell' in the UK City, Town and Village Photos collection
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street address: 28 Graylands Rd, Peckham S E
Registration district: Camberwell
Registration District Number: 27
Sub-registration district: St George
ED, institution, or vessel: 6
Piece: 2525

John Casson 31
Susan Casson 33
Louisa Casson 7
Patrick Casson 6
Alice Casson 4
Ivy Casson 2
Robert Casson 0

there are other possibles in the 1911


in Lancaster

Henry Casson 38
Dorothy Ellen Casson 36
> Annie Casson 15


in Tranmere, Cheshire

Henry Robert Casson 48
Margaret Cason 44
Frederick Henry Cason 23
Herry Cason 19
Ernest Cason 17
> Annie Cason 15
Caterine Selina Cason 12


in Cockermouth

Sarah Casson 55
Edward Casson 34
John Casson 24
Ernest Casson 22
Thomas William Casson 19
> Annie Edith Casson 14


(the sailing was on 2 April 1919)


(Sylvia, such long blocks of text for people who are being ruled out!)

Grace ..........

in view of all this ..............

what is your proof that her name was Ann Casson?

What makes you think she was the child of James and Ann Casson?



But people were not sent to either Canada or Australia as punishment by 1919

do you know for sure what the later lives of the Casson daughters were, and that they remained in England?

I'm wondering whether the woman who went to Canada was a granddaughter, even, who would have been an adult and married by WWII

the couple actually did have quite a few other children besides the ones you have listed, Grace

this is the 1881 census

James Casson 29 traveller
Ann Casson 26
Eliza Casson 9
Ann Casson 8
James Casson 6
Thomas Casson 3
Sarah Casson 2
Matilda Casson 2 months

1911 census: '14 children born, 10 still living, 4 died'

we don't know which children died

so there is every possibility that the woman who went to Canada was a granddaughter, a child of one of the children born before 1881 for instance

since their mother was Ann, any of them might have had a daughter Ann, but not necessarily Casson


but I think I'm not going to try to trace the paths of each of those children :-D

Province or Territory: New Brunswick
District: St John and Albert
District Number: 47
Sub-District: Saint John (City) - Sydney Ward
Sub-District Number: 18
City, Town or Village: St John City
Street or Township: 46 St James
Municipality: Sydney Ward
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members:
Name Age
Mary Casson 74
William H Casson 44
Annie J Casson 40 [immig 1906]
Silas Casson 38

This is the only English born Annie Casson on the 1921 census - well, there's also the w/o John Casson, but I'm excluding her.

[image pm'ed to Grace]
[it said 1st send failed, so I sent again, but I think it eventually worked, so sorry for the repetition]

Welcome to the Community boards Grace.


(I'll let Grace know that she has replies to her query.) :-)

Hi Grace, you're halfway there. You need to reply here in the thread - use the 'Add your reply' box at the bottom rather than clicking on my or someone's name.

I'm going to put your message here so others helping can see it as it does not seem to be private info


'Hi Joonie, First, I would like to thank you for your time and expertise in helping me with this.
This Matilda you mention seems to be right. The family in the 1901 census were living at 2 Hartington House, Mardyke Street, St George the Martyr Parish, Southwark, London. The parents were Ann B1862 in Bermondsey & James B1851 also I believe S.E.London. The other children are Elizabeth 1883, Charles 1885, Henry 1887, George 1890 and Twins Amelia (my Mother) and Polly 1892. Anne would have been born after 1892. '


yes, that is all in your opening post ... now what you need to do is read back over the thread :-)

you can look yourself for a birth of this supposed Anne at
http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl
... it is not there

mother Ann's dob from the census works out to c1852, not c1862

Ann & James had quite a few more children than that - see his entry in 1911 saying he had 14 children of whom 10 were still living, and see the 1881 census listing older children

there was no Ann(e) Casson born after those other children anywhere in their geographic vicinity

they did have a daughter Ann shown in the 1881 census as 8 years old but she would likely be too old to have been the one you are talking about who wrote from Canada during WWII (unless you meant WWI?)

we need to find some other way of figuring out who the woman in Canada was, because they info you are giving seems not to be correct

the Miss A Casson who travelled to Canada in 1919 is almost certainly one of the Anns from other parts of England, that Sylvia and I suggested

the Annie Casson posted by mgnv in Canada in 1921 was with her parents Mary and William, and brother William, in the 1891 English census in Cumberland ... Mary and Annie travelled to Halifax in 1905 ... your James & Ann did not live there and did not have a son William, so you can disregard her

I would note that I have been unable to find the family in 1891 ... since James was identified in 1881 as 'traveller' and was later a 'brush hawker', I wonder whether the family were in fact 'travellers' (in the 'gypsy' sense) and were missed on that census

the family was in the St Saviour Southwark / Southwark registration disrict in 1881 and 1901, and there were a dozen Casson births there in that period, but no Ann ... in fact, except for Matilda 1881 and a Mary 1892, all were boys ... one being your George, and others could be children of James & Ann who died before 1901

the only thing I can think of is to try to trace each of the children shown in the 1881 and 1901 censuses to see whether they remained in England and whether they married and had children, and whether perhaps a grandchild went to Canada ... and that is a bit of a massive undertaking

there is also always the possibility that one of the girls had a daughter while unmarried, who could be the woman in Canada

Amelia (Milly) and Mary (Polly) were tin workers in Camberwell in 1911 ... no other Casson with birthplace 'Bermondsey' shows in that census so finding them all could be difficult, and we do not know which four had died

the ones we know of from the 1881 and 1901 censuses are

1881
Eliza Casson c1872
Ann Casson c1873
James Casson c1875
Thomas Casson c1878
Sarah Casson c1879
Matilda Casson 1881

plus in 1901
Elizabeth Casson c1883
Charles Casson c1885
Henry Casson c1887
George Casson c1890
Milly (Amelia) Casson c1892
Polly (Mary) Casson c1892

which makes 11, so one of them had died before 1911
... or a child could have been born in the early 1880s and left home by 1901, while another child had died ...


we don't flinch in the face of difficult searches here, but I'm afraid this one may be less difficult than impossible :-(

Hi Grace

Thank you for your messages ......... as Joonie said, you should reply on this thread, so that we can all see what your replies are. You see, we work together, helping each other to find information to help you.

I have copied over your 5 messsages so that everyone can see the replies


1. SylviaInCanada 12 Jan 2016 01:17

Is this your Casson family in 1901??


"Hi Sylvia. First I must thank you for your time and your brilliant detective work. (I struggle with so much). This is the right family. I believe Ann /e was born after this 1901 census. I know Ann existed because many years ago I was shown a letter that she had sent back to the family saying that she had now married a Janitor ? and she had a family now in Canada. She was never seen or heard from by the family again."


2. SylviaInCanada 12 Jan 2016 01:23

This looks like James in 1911 ......... a widower living with 2 of his sons

"Hi Sylvia. This is a bit of info I didn't have. In the 1911 census, I found Matilda Now married to Albert Aitkenhead B1881 and with a 1yr old daughter Margaret. Also in the same household is Amelia Casson (my mother) and Mary (Polly) her twin. Looks as if the Casson family split up on the death of their mother Ann.
Regards Grace"


3. I think this reply refers to this posting

SylviaInCanada 12 Jan 2016 01:30

This child could in fact be the A Casson on the passenger list

"Sorry Sylvia, none of these are my relatives. I know since the 1860s and maybe for longer they have all lived in the London Boroughs of Southwark or Bermondsey. Regards G"


4.

"Hi Sylvia, Ann was born after my mother in 1892. My family at this time (no wonder with all those children) were dirt poor and there is no way any of them could afford to send one of their number to Canada. Also, I am maybe inclined to agree with the family story that Ann was 'deported' because of stealing bread. After all, the family are not scoring 'Brownie points' for labelling one of their number a criminal. (It'll turn out this Ann robbed a Brinks Matt vault and went to Canada in a private yacht ).. I do hope so.. Regards Grace"

:-D :-D :-D what fun if she had :-D :-D :-D


5. SylviaInCanada 12 Jan 2016 01:42

Grace .......... in view of all this ..............
what is your proof that her name was Ann Casson?
What makes you think she was the child of James and Ann Casson?

"Hi Sylvia, My only proof is the family stories and the fact that I have seen a letter from her. Right up until the start of WWII it seems Barnardo's and other Christian charities were sending children to the commonwealth. Maybe one of these had a deal with the Authorities.?. Stranger things have happened and maybe this info is still classified ? I would make a good thriller writer lol G"

OK


so what if you have your dates wrong??


Thesis .....

....... the child Ann was born 1893/94, stole bread around 1899, was put into a home for delinquent girls OR handed over to the home by the parents before the 1901 Census.

She was then sent to Canada between 1901 and 1911as a child aged 11 to 15.

That would fit with the ages of children sent to Canada as Home Children.

Name: Robert Richard Casson
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 1 Dec 1895
Father's name: James Casson ( traveller)
Mother's name: Annie Casson
Parish or Poor Law Union: Bermondsey St Mary Magdalene
Borough: Southwark

Name: George William Casson
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 7 Sep 1890
Father's name: James Casson
Mother's name: Annie Casson
Parish or Poor Law Union: Bermondsey St Mary Magdalene
Borough: Southwark
Register Type: Parish Registers

Name: Robert John Casson
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 2 Dec 1888
Father's name: James Casson
Mother's name: Annie Casson
Parish or Poor Law Union: Bermondsey St Mary Magdalene
Borough: Southwark
Register Type: Parish Registers

I think you sent this message while I was adding the above, Grace


'Hi Joonie. A granddaughter ? She was always referred to me as my aunt. I was born in 1932 and my mother Amelia died in 1938 and then shortly after I was evacuated away from family to Devon. Therefore, I have always been too young to receive knowledge from my elders and had to rely on my siblings, who themselves didn't know much.'


okay now we know a little more, that Amelia at least is accounted for :-)

yes certainly, your mother was the youngest of the clan, 20 years younger than the eldest, so you were at a disadvantage for knowing your older relations

keep in mind that family relationships are not always accurately described ... you could well have had a cousin older than many aunts, if born in the 1890s or even earlier, a child of Eliza c1872 or Ann c1873, say ... she could have been 40 years older than you

this certainly happens ... I have a relation I met on line who thought her grandfather was my grandmother's first cousin ... he wasn't ... my gr-grmother Alice was the youngest in the family, and she and her eldest sister Mary each had a child before marriage ... Mary's in 1872 and Alice's in 1890 ... my newfound cousin thought her grandfather was Mary's son William ... but he wasn't, he was William's son William :-)

... so maybe this Ann was Amelia's older sister Ann's daughter Ann, just for example

it would be excellent if we could find this family in 1891 ..........

just for info, this would be James's and Ann's marriage

Marriages Dec 1872
CASSON James St. Saviour 1d 235
HART Ann St. Saviour 1d 235

Ann's death

Deaths Dec 1907 = born c1854
CASSON Ann 53 St.Olave 1d 89

probably her birth

Births Jun 1853
HART Annie Bermondsey 1d 54


this is the only baptism of a (possible) child of theirs shown at familysearch.org

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NJ52-4BV

Name Robert Richard Casson
Gender Male
Christening Date 01 Dec 1895
Christening Place St. Mary Magdalene's, Bermondsey, Surrey, England
Father's Name James Casson
Mother's Name Annie


Births Mar 1896
Casson Robert Richard St. Saviour 1d 2

Deaths Jun 1897
Casson Robert Richard 1 St. Saviour 1d 15


this is a complete list of Casson births in St Saviour reg dist 1870-1900
* are the ones we know are James's and Ann's children

Births Mar 1870
CASSON Charles Thomas St. Saviour 1d 53 or 58

* Births Dec 1871
Casson Eliza St. Saviour 1d 27

* Births Mar 1873
CASSON Annie St. Saviour 1d 49

* Births Dec 1875
CASSON James St. Saviour 1d 28

* Births Sep 1877
CASSON Thomas St. Saviour 1d 30

* Births Jun 1879
Casson Sarah Alice St. Saviour 1d 32

* Births Mar 1881
CASSON Matilda Emma St Saviour 1d 44

* Births Mar 1885
CASSON Charles St Saviour 1d 38

Births Sep 1889 died 1889
Casson George Henry St. Saviour 1d 67

Births Dec 1890 died 1891
Casson Frank Jacob St. Saviour 1d 69

Births Mar 1891
Casson Edward Thomas St. Saviour 1d 4

Births Dec 1892 (son of James born in Ireland c1859, per 1901 census)
Casson Alfred St. Saviour 1d 103

Births Mar 1893
Casson Henry John St. Saviour 1d 8

Births Sep 1894
Casson George Alfred St. Saviour 1d 6

? Births Mar 1896
Casson Robert Richard St. Saviour 1d 26

Births Jun 1897
Casson William St. Saviour 1d 66

Births Mar 1899 died 1899
Casson Samuel Frederick St. Saviour 1d 63

Births Jun 1900 (son of James born in Ireland c1859, per 1901 census)
CASSON Samuel Henry St Saviour 1d 130


I haven't found birth regs for Amelia (Milly) and Mary (Polly)


some probable marriages

Marriages Sep 1889
Casson Eliza St. Olave 1d 493
MORGAN George William St. Olave 1d 493

1911 in Bermondsey

George W Morgan 44 lighterman
Eliza Morgan 39
George J Morgan 21
Beatrice Morgan 17
Grace Morgan 15
Albert Morgan 12
Edward Morgan 9
Winifred Morgan 7
Leonard Morgan 5
Eileen Morgan 2

Marriages Jun 1898
Casson Sarah Alice St Olave 1d 414
Greig Albert Edward St Olave 1d 414

1901 in Southwark

Albert Edward Greig 25
Sarah Greig 22
Alice Ethel Greig 2

Sarah had died by 1911

Albert Edward Greig 34
Alice Greig 12
Margaret Greig 10
Jessie Greig 8
Mary Greig 3

Marriages Dec 1899
Casson James St. Saviour 1d 280





so just an example of how Amelia could have had nieces and nephews her age or even older

one of whom might have been thought of as your aunt, although really your cousin


do you have any record of Amelia's birth? do you know the date of her birthday (day and month?)

the only Amelia born in St Olave district who would have been 9 in 1901 who had a twin registered on the same page was

Births Jun 1892
Lewis Amelia St. Olave 1d 310
Lewis Gertrude May St. Olave 1d 310



it is therefore interesting to note that the births of several of the children were not registered in Bermondsey

this birth is possibly interesting

Births Sep 1892
Casson Mary St. Olave 1d 191a

she is the only one on that page and it could possibly be a correction to

Births Sep 1892
Cashan Mary St. Olave 1d 191


>>> oh my goodness yes indeed

Births Sep 1892
Cashan >>> Amelia Emily St. Olave 1d 192
Cashan >>> Mary St. Olave 1d 191

the twins, on consecutive pages, under surname CASHAN

also

Births Sep 1896 died 1896
Cashan William St. Olave 1d 228

Births Mar 1899 >>> died 1899
Cashan Annie Amelia St. Saviour 1d 149

so that Annie Amelia Cashan is NOT your Ann, in any event


but still no trace of the family in 1891