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Good afternoon,
I have the marriage certificate of Henry Scott and Martha Charlotte Forbes, 8 July 1875 at Christ Church in the New Parish Church, Bermondsey, Surrey.
Henry is shown as full age, bachelor, leather dresser, 8 George Row, father Henry Scott, Potman.
Martha is shown as full age, spinster, no occupation, same address, father George William Forbes, Iron Moulder.
I also have the birth certificate (St Olave, Southwark) of William James Scott, b 6 March 1875, 8 George Row, father Henry Scott, mother Martha Charlotte Scott, formerly Wilkinson, father's occupation leather dresser, Informant the mark of Martha Charlotte Scott mother 8 George Row, Bermondsey, registered 16 April 1875.
Finally, I've found records for three other children (all St Olave) with mother's maiden name of Wilkinson :-
Henry William Scott, b 1872 March, 1d 252
Martha Charlotte Scott, b 1874 March, 1d 276
Joseph Scott, b 1881 June, 1d 225.
One obvious question :-
Why the discrepancy in mmn between marriage certificate (Forbes) and birth certificates (Wilkinson)?
Also, I wonder why the parents decided to marry after three of their children had been born.
Sorry for the long post, but I would be grateful for any observations/explanations.
Thanks in advance.
Ron

3 of those children were born before Henry's marriage to Martha Charlotte Forbes. Could he have been previously married to a Wilkinson?

?????? Names switched round???

London, England, Church of England Births and Baptisms, 1813-1917

Name: Charlotte Martha Wilkinson
Gender: Female
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 4 Apr 1852
Baptism Place: Bermondsey St James, Southwark, England
Father: George Wilkinson - Iron Moulder
Mother: Sarah Wilkinson
Residence 11 Anns Place
Date of birth - 6 Feb 1852

Unless George Wilkinson died & Henry Forbes was her stepfather, it does seem as if they were 2 different people

Is this the family in 1881 ?

1881 England, Wales & Scotland Census
3, Woolff Street, Bermondsey, St Olave Southwark, London & Surrey, England

First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Thomas H Martin Head Married Male 45 1836 Grocers Porter Barking, Essex, England
Harriet Martin Wife Married Female 50 1831 - Richmond, Surrey, England
Christopher J Martin Son Single Male 18 1863 Butchers Boy Surrey, England
Caroline H Martin Daughter Single Female 17 1864 Shop Girl Surrey, England
Thomas L Martin Son Single Male 15 1866 Machine Rulen Appr (Printer) Surrey, England
Sarah Martin Daughter Single Female 14 1867 Shop Girl Surrey, England
Martha Scott Wife Married Female 27 1854 Clipper Surrey, England
Henry Scott Son Single Male 9 1872 Scholar Surrey, England
William Scott Son Single Male 6 1875 Scholar Surrey, England
Charlotte Scott Daughter Single Female 2 1879 - Surrey, England

Hi MargaretM, yes that's possible, but Joseph was born in 1881, 6 years after the marriage and the mother's maiden name was still Wilkinson. Also, Henry is shown as a bachelor, although I know people often lied about things.

Hi +++DetEcTive+++, I understand what you're saying but the address is identical in the birth and marriage certificates, despite mmn being different.

Has anyone managed to find a birth registration for Charlotte Martha under either Wilkinson OR Forbes??

I can't!

This will be the Charlotte aged 2 on 1881 census

Name: Mother's Maiden Surname: Order:
SCOTT, CHARLOTTE FORBS Order
GRO Reference: 1879 M Quarter in SAINT OLAVE SOUTHWARK Volume 01D Page 243

and the death of the child found by poster -

Name: Age at Death (in years): Order:
SCOTT, MARTHA CHARLOTTE 2 Order
GRO Reference: 1876 S Quarter in SAINT OLAVE SOUTHWARK Volume 01D Page 124 Order

Yes, Greyghost, it is.

Hi SylviaInCanada, yes, it's the reference I put in my original post

Only Martha Charlotte I've found, so almost 10 years older than 1881 suggests, but born Surrey as per census, but not Bermondsey

Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
Births Dec 1845 (>99%)

from GRO -
WILKINSON, MARTHA CHARLOTTE DURAND Order
GRO Reference: 1845 D Quarter in KINGSTON Volume 04 Page 200

But may not have been registered

Ronald ............ I meant the MOTHER Martha Charlotte Forbes or Wilkinson

I do not see that in your OP, just the reference to the child

Now that's interesting Greyghost. I obtained Martha Charlotte mmn from the GRO site. I think the Charlotte in the 1881 is a different person, as she was born in 1879. Martha was 1875. However, the Forbes reference is intriguing.

The usual reason for a couple not to marry until after several children are born include they don't want to, but usually back in those days it meant that one partner was already married.

As divorce was all but impossible for any but the very wealthy, people couldn't marry until the other partner died.

More Scott/Forbes births - after the marriage

Name: Mother's Maiden Surname: Order:

SCOTT, ELIZABETH SARAH FORBES Order
GRO Reference: 1877 S Quarter in SAINT OLAVE SOUTHWARK Volume 01D Page 196

and her death
Name: Age at Death (in years): Order:
SCOTT, ELIZABETH SARAH 0 Order
GRO Reference: 1878 M Quarter in SAINT OLAVE SOUTHWARK Volume 01D Page 159

the Scott/Wilkinson births if all to the same couple go on pre and post the marriage of Henry and Martha in 1875

Results:

SCOTT, HENRY WILLIAM WILKINSON
GRO Reference: 1872 M Quarter in SAINT OLAVE SOUTHWARK Volume 01D

SCOTT, MARTHA CHARLOTTE WILKINSON Order
GRO Reference: 1874 M Quarter in SAINT OLAVE SOUTHWARK Volume 01D Page 276

SCOTT< WILLIAM JAMES WILKINSON
GRO Reference: 1875 J Quarter in SAINT OLAVE SOUTHWARK Volume 01D Page 245 Order

SCOTT, JOSEPH WILKINSON Order
GRO Reference: 1881 J Quarter in ST OLAVE SOUTHWARK Volume 01D Page 225

Here's another version of the baptism found by TEC ,,,,,, only she was born much earlier

from FMP ............

Surrey Baptisms

First name(s) Charlotte Martha
Last name Wilkinson
Birth year 1839
Birth date 26 Sep 1839
Baptism year 1852
Baptism date 04 Apr 1852
Baptism place Bermondsey St James
Relationship Dau
Father's first name(s) George
Mother's first name(s) Sarah
Parent's occupation Iron Moulder
Residence 11 Ann's Place
County Surrey
Country England
Record set Surrey Baptisms
Category Life Events (BDMs)
Subcategory Parish Baptisms
Collections from England, Great Britain


says born 1839 ....... even earlier!!!



BUT is this also her or another child? Same parents' names and same address, baptised same day
:
Surrey Baptisms

First name(s) Martha
Last name Wilkinson
Birth year 1852
Birth date 06 Feb 1852
Baptism year 1852
Baptism date 04 Apr 1852
Baptism place Bermondsey St James
Relationship Dau
Father's first name(s) George
Mother's first name(s) Sarah
Parent's occupation Iron Moulder
Residence 11 Ann's Place
County Surrey
Country England
Record set Surrey Baptisms
Category Life Events (BDMs)
Subcategory Parish Baptisms

Sorry SylviaInCanada, misinterpreted your question.
Also, thanks for explanation of why couples didn't always marry before first child.

Martha widowed by 1891, - so no idea of age for Henry as he wasn't shown on 1881 census either to look for him earlier

1891 England, Wales & Scotland Census
New Church Street, Bermondsey, St Olave Southwark, London & Surrey, England

First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Martha Scott Head Widow Female 37 1854 - London, Middlesex, England
William Scott Son Single Male 16 1875 General Labourer London, Middlesex, England
Henry Scott Son Single Male 20 1871 General Labourer London, Middlesex, England
Charlotte Scott Daughter - Female 12 1879 - London, Middlesex, England
Henry J Hall Boarder Single Male 48 1843 Lighter Man London, Middlesex, England

unless one of these is him - so born c 1830 / 1825 / 1825 which would make him older than Martha's declared age on census. But he could have died anywhere or Martha just says she's widowed

Deaths Jun 1881 (>99%)
Scott Henry James 51 St. Olave 1d 112

Deaths Dec 1885 (>99%)
SCOTT Henry 60 St. Olave

Deaths Jun 1887 (>99%)
Scott Henry 62 St. Olave 1d 198