Find Ancestors

Hello everybody! Long time no post. I hope you are all well!

I am trying to look into some very side branches of my Llewellyn family. And in the course of doing so are making lots of little wormholes to go down :-)

First focus is the family of Thomas Llewellyn Williams.

Thomas was born on 07 July1858 and was baptised on 12 September that year.

Thomas married Mary Bull on 30/11/1878. Her father, Silas, has an occupation of dead! Mary’s age is shown as 19 but I think she wasn’t 19 until 13 January the following year with her dob being 13/01/1860
Silas had married Mary’s mother Dinah Powell on 11/04/1859. He died 13/01/1861 (Mary’s first birthday).

So this is where many little wormholes started for me!
Mary’s first child is Jane Llewellyn Williams and the mother is shown as Mary Williams formerly Walters. On her two son’s birth certificates it is formerly Bull so I know they are one and the same.
From many family trees I have gathered that Dinah married again – allegedly in 1862 in Wales – to William Walters. There is no evidence of this AND I CAN’T FIND A MARRIAGE.

William and Dinah emigrated to the USA – first to Pennsylvania and latterly to New Jersey. This is borne out by various censuses. They had four sons; William Edward? born in Wales in 1862/3 – I CAN’T FIND A BIRTH,
John born 1864 in Pennsylvania and James born 1867 & Daniel born 1869 both in New Jersey.
In the 1870 census, there is also a daughter Mary Walters (transcribed Watter) whose birth corresponds to that of Mary Bull. And a year later she is back in Wales with Silas’ parents.

I have found Dinah in 1841 and 1851 Wales census and the next time I find her is in 1870 in the USA census. What I think is William Walters is on the 1851 Wales census on the same page as Dinah.

In fact, I cannot find Dinah born 1837 in Bedwelty, Mary born 1860 also in Bedwelty or William Walters allegedly born anything between 1829 and 1831 also in Bedwelty in any 1861 census. According to one of the USA censuses the date of their immigration was 1865.
I also cannot find Mary’s grandparents who she is with in 1871 John Bull born 1811 and Mary Bull born 1813 (both born in Paulton)

SO CAN ANYONE HELP FIND THEM in 1861 please?

One other thing I can't find is a death for Mary Williams. I have a 1939 register for Thomas Llewellyn Williams and there is one closed entry who I assume to be Mary. Thomas died just a month or so later but the informant is his son Sidney Thomas (who is the subject of another load of wormholes that I haven't gotten my head around yet (but that's for another time).

Thank you in advance for any help you might be able to give me!

Jude

Observations or ponderings..........

William and Dinah must have travelled to USA before 1865 if John was born there in 1864
Could his older brother have been born there too?
May be though William Edward's birth was just not registered.
Have you found a record of baptism for him in Wales.

As Mary was so young when her father died, she would perhaps have considered William Walter to be her father, but by the time her later children were born, she gave the correct information.

1939
Mary's details should show by now. Are you sure she was alive?

I'll have a look for them.......

Thank you Gwyn.

William and Dinah must have travelled to USA before 1865 if John was born there in 1864 - Actual dob (hunt just came in) was 27/12/1864. The immigration year of 1865 came from the census - not sure how accurate it is. But I agree, they must have travelled earlier.

Could his older brother have been born there too? All of the censuses show birthplace as Wales. Can't find hide or hair of him in Wales.

As Mary was so young when her father died, she would perhaps have considered William Walter to be her father, but by the time her later children were born, she gave the correct information - yes that was my assumption. She obviously spent her early years with her mother (she was shown as 11 on the 1870 US census) so I am guessing she was known early on as Walters.

Mary's details should show by now. Are you sure she was alive? No I am not. But I don't know who the closed record could be if it isn't her. I can't actually find her after 1911 census but in 1921, Thomas was living alone in Cardiff and gave his status as married as he did in 1939.

Jude

????

WALTERS, WILLIAM mmn POWELL
GRO Reference: 1862 D Quarter in MERTHYR TYDFIL Volume 11A Page 340

Oh well done Argyle Gran! Just purchased the digital image and mother is Dinah Walters late Bull formerly Powell!

So one chalked off - thank you :-)

Jude

Maybe??

England & Wales Marriages 1837-2005
Merthyr Tydfil, Glamorganshire, Wales

******* First name(s) Diana
******* Last name Bull
******* Marriage year 1861
******* MarriageFinder™ Diana Bull married one of these people
******* William Walter, (Lewis Jones, Edmund Thomas)
Country Wales
Volume 11A
Marriage quarter 4
Volume as transcribed 11A
Page number 431
Registration month -
Record set England & Wales Marriages 1837-2005
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
District Merthyr Tydfil
Subcategory Civil Marriage & Divorce
District number -
Collections from Great Britain, Wales
County Glamorganshire

Or

Glamorganshire Marriages And Banns
Llanfabon, Glamorganshire, Wales

***** First name(s) Diana
***** Last name Bule
***** Spouse's first name(s) William
***** Spouse's last name Walter
Spouse's residence Llanfabon
Event Banns
Event year 1861
Page 18
Banns year 1861
County Glamorganshire
Banns date 18 Aug 1861
Country Wales
Marriage year -
Record set Glamorganshire Marriages And Banns
Residence Llanfabon
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Marriage place Llanfabon
Subcategory Parish Marriages

Collections from Wales, Great Britain
Welsh Archive Services / Gwasanaethau Archifau Cymru

Entry reads:

Banns of Marriage between William Walter of this Parish Batchelor and Diana Bule of this Parish WIDOW

published 1st Sunday Aug 18th
2nd Sunday Aug 25th
3rd Sunday Sept 2nd?

The "e" at the end of Bule could be a smaller lazily written "L" on looking at the original.

Apologies brain fog regarding Powell,Bull, Walter.
Does this help??

Dianah Walters in 1856
England & Wales Marriages 1837-2005
Merthyr Tydfil, Glamorganshire, Wales
***** First name(s) Dianah
***** Last name Walters
****** MarriageFinder™ Dianah Walters married one of these people
Michael Leary, John Powell
Country Wales
Volume 11A
Marriage quarter 2
Volume as transcribed 11A
Marriage year 1856
Page number 554
Registration month -
Record set England & Wales Marriages 1837-2005
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
District Merthyr Tydfil
Subcategory Civil Marriage & Divorce
District number -
Collections from Great Britain, Wales
County Glamorganshire

Although the names are wrong (assuming Dinah and William were married) , I keep coming back to this record.
Posting just in case!

Dinah Powell
in the New York, U.S., Arriving Passenger and Crew Lists (including Castle Garden and Ellis Island), 1820-1957
Name Dinah Powell
Gender Female
Ethnicity/ Nationality English
Age 25
Birth Date abt 1838
Place of Origin England
Departure Port Liverpool, England
Destination USA
Arrival Date 13 May 1863
Arrival Port New York, New York, USA
Ship Name Sunrise

She's travelling with a Walter Powell, 25, farmer, and an "infant" called William Powell.

I can't see any such couple in 1861, nor any marriage between 1861 and 1863.

On the other hand, the record says that Dinah is English.


ADDED:
That family are at the top of one page.
At the bottom of the previous page there are a Richard Powell, age unreadable
(24 ? 27?), labourer, and a William Powell, 60, labourer - but I can't tell if they're part of the same group or not.
Above Richard Powell there's a William Jenkins, 27, and above him a John Powell, 32 - but again, I have no idea if there's any connection with Dinah Powell.

Just out of interest - and another "wormhole", I fear!
you mentioned that Mary and Thomas Williams had a daughter and two sons.

1911 census says they had had four children, of whom two had died.

I know that Jane and Sidney/Sydney were still alive in 1911, and that Clifford died in infancy.
Have you identified the fourth child?

One possibility, as Jane was registered in Pontypridd with mmn Walters.

WILLIAMS, DEBORAH mmn WALTERS
GRO Reference: 1881 S Quarter in PONTYPRIDD Volume 11A Page 408


WILLIAMS, DEBORAH 0
GRO Reference: 1881 D Quarter in PONTYPRIDD Volume 11A Page 227

However, there was another Deborah Williams registered in Pontypridd in 1881 (mmn Gwilym), and I don't know which child died.


And there were Williams/Walters marriages, which isn't helpful.

1911 census says they had had four children, of whom two had died.

Yes, Argyll Gran, I had noticed that. In fact, it's what started the interest in this family.

I know that Jane and Sidney/Sydney were still alive in 1911, and that Clifford died in infancy. Have you identified the fourth child? No I haven't found a child yet. That Deborah one seems a good shout. I'll have a look later.

Regarding the travelling to the USA, I think that that Dinah is someone who married a Powell (I will check later but it rings bells).

Jink20, I will have a looksee at these later as well!

Jude

Jink20 - I think the banns you have transcribed as Bule is the correct one. The actual certificate is on FMP and Ancestry and is transcribed on Ancestry as Diana Ball. The transcription on FMP shows Diana (not Dinah) as a spinster but the certificate states widow aged 25 which fits. Father is William Powell an ostler which also fits. Where did you find the banns? I can't find them only the marriage certificate.
Groom is William Walter rather than Walters and the father is John, a farmer. This didn't fit with the 1851 census I had found but I have found one which does match, and as per the wrong one, siblings names match the names they chose for their children so I think it's a fair bet that this nails the marriage.

Argyle Gran, that immigration record pops up in my hints. Her name is Dinah Powell and she is married to Walter Powell so don't think it is her. I can't find that marriage though albeit I am not really interested in finding it because I am sure it is not her.

Deborah is not Jane and Thomas' child.

So I am still stuck on finding where all parties were at the 1861 census :-(

Jude

Argyle Gran

Just talking out loud! Thomas and Mary married in 1878. Annoyingly, there is no address on the marriage certificate but they married in Bedwelty Parish Church. At the time of Jane's birth registered in Pontypridd under mmn Walters, the address was Penygraig Ystradyfodwg. By 1881 at the census, they had moved to Morgan Street in Cardiff St Mary. Both Sidney's and Clifford's births were registered in Cardiff (they were living in Cardiff St John) under mmn Bull.

So I have trawled the births and deaths on the assumption that anything before 1881 would be Pontypridd and after 1881, Cardiff. I searched on both Walters and Bull.

Deborah wasn't their child. There was a William Llewellyn Williams that matched the assumed search criteria but that was another Williams/Walters marriage.

There is also a John Llewellyn Williams but the mmn was Walters and was registered in Pontypridd when they were living in Cardiff. So I am discounting that one as well.

Which leaves me high and dry and run out of steam lol!

Jude

Looking again at the 1863 travel record -

in spite of the fact that Dinah was already married to William Walter by that time, and I can't explain the Walter Powell listed with her in 1863 (unless a clerk got mixed up with the names Powell and Walter) -

the ages of John, Richard, and William Powell on that record would fit with those of Dinah's brothers and father:

Dinah Powell
in the 1851 Wales Census
Name Dinah Powell
Age 14
Estimated Birth Year abt 1837
Relation Daughter
Father's Name William Powell
Mother's Name Mary Powell
Gender Female
Where born Bedwellty, Monmouthshire, Wales
Civil Parish or Township Mynyddyslwyn
Ecclesiastical parish Clawrplwyf
County/Island Monmouthshire
Country Wales
Registration district Newport
Sub-registration district St Woollos
ED, institution, or vessel 1a
Piece 2453
Folio 266
Page number 5
Household schedule number 16
Household Members (Name) Age Relationship
William Powell 51 Head
Mary Powell 49 Wife
John Powell 21 Son
Elizabeth Powell 19 Daughter
Richard Powell 16 Son
Dinah Powell 14 Daughter
Thomas Powell 11 Son
Roger Powell 7 Son
William Powell 10 Mo Son

Richard is with his older brother William (c1828) in New Jersey in 1870 census. The 1880 census says he immigrated in 1863. <<<<

Roger emigrated to the USA in 1866.

The parents, William and Mary, were in Rockaway, New Jersey in 1870, and both died in NJ.

(With them in 1870 is a James Powell, 11, born in Wales, who must be a grandson)

I don't know about the brothers Thomas or William (1850)., or the sister Elizabeth.

Re James Powell, 11 -
that brings me back to this record:

James Powell
in the New York, U.S., Arriving Passenger and Crew Lists (including Castle Garden and Ellis Island), 1820-1957
Name James Powell
Gender Male
Ethnicity/ Nationality English
Age 7
Birth Date abt 1858
Place of Origin England
Departure Port Liverpool, England
Destination USA
Arrival Date 2 Oct 1865
Arrival Port New York, New York, USA
Ship Name City of Cork

Travelling with a Mary Powell, 60 - possibly his grandmother ??


I know they're all common names, and I maybe forcing my theory to fit the record -
or vice versa!

Banns were found on FMP

https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBPRS%2FWAL%2F4188799%2F00011&parentid=GBPRS%2FM%2F859005133%2F2

https://heritage.statueofliberty.org/passenger-result

Information for James Powell states he was 9

Roger was 23 and sailed on the City of New York

Powell, Richard 1863 last res/POB Ireland Ship Name Neptune
Powell, Richard 1863 Eng Ship Name Liverpool


US National Archives database

Records of Passengers from Ireland and the United Kingdom, ca. 1820 - ca. 1912
https://aad.archives.gov/aad/fielded-search.jsp?dt=3300&cat=gp44&tf=F&bc=,sl

ArgyllGran

Working my way through it all. There must be an error with Dinah and William Walters because I am as sure as can be that you are right! I have now added all the children in the 1841 and 1851 censuses and that same 1863 passenger list comes up for loads of them as you say.

I have not found out who James is......

One strange thing is in 1841 there is a son William born in 1828 for whom I have a good line of history in New Jersey (including his gravestone which is linked on the US Find a Grave site to parents William and Mary and siblings Dinah and Roger. On the 1851 census there is another son called William born in 1850 - not checked him out yet to see if he is another son or a grandson.

So on the assumption that they arrived in 1863, then we should be able to find William and Mary, Dinah and daughter Mary and John and Mary Bull in 1861 and to date I can't find any of them!

Jude

US National Archives database

MANIFEST IDENTIFICATION NUMBER 901915

901915 POWELL WILLIAM ENGLAND ENGLAND
901915 POWELL WALTER ENGLAND ENGLAND
901915 POWELL RICHARD ENGLAND ENGLAND
901915 POWELL JOHN IRELAND IRELAND
901915 POWELL DINAH ENGLAND ENGLAND

On the 1863 record, along with Dinah and the rest of them, Richard's name is abbreviated to Rich - transcribed as Rick on Ancestry.

Rick Powell
in the New York, U.S., Arriving Passenger and Crew Lists (including Castle Garden and Ellis Island), 1820-1957
Name Rick Powell [Rich]
Gender Male
Ethnicity/ Nationality English
Age 27
Birth Date abt 1836
Place of Origin England
Departure Port Liverpool, England
Destination USA
Arrival Date 13 May 1863
Arrival Port New York, New York, USA
Ship Name Sunrise

If the info given in 1851 for William Powell 1850 is correct, this should be his birth, assuming his birth was registered:

POWELL, WILLIAM mmn RICHARDS
GRO Reference: 1850 J Quarter in NEWPORT Volume 26 Page 128