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1901 census, William Palmer age 45 at Coven Street, Wolverhampton, St Marys Parish.

With wife Ellen age 40, daug Beatrice age 13, William age 11, Frederick 10, Edward 6 and Arthur 4.

I can't find this family on the 1891 census so I checked where the children were born...several different places between 1888 and 1897! If they had William in Aston Bromley, Salop?? and Frederick in Heanton, Salop surely thats where their abode would be in 1891??.....Can't find them.

Also on the 1901 census, I can't read where William Palmer senior was born, I think it reads Coal**Dale (Coalbrookdale perhaps?)

And where is their marriage?...can't find that either...am I going mad? or do they not want to be found with all the moving around?

HELP...Please??

I've found the marriage in 1887 Mar 1/4 Cleobury Mortimer. William Palmer & Ellen Lloyd.....another place to search!

What about this?

1891:

Name: William Palmer
Age: 35
Estimated birth year: abt 1856
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Fanny
Gender: Male
Where born: Cleobury Mortimer, Shropshire, England

Civil parish: Worfield
Ecclesiastical parish: Worfield
Town: Ackleton
County/Island: Shropshire
Country: England

Street address: Ackleton

Occupation: Malt maker

Registration district: Bridgnorth
Sub-registration district: Worfield
ED, institution, or vessel: 8
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
William Palmer 35
Fanny Palmer 41
William E Palmer 11
Beatrice Palmer 7

Wife & children all born Worfield.


Update: No they're on 1901 as well. Probably related though.

This looks more like it.

1891:
Name: Beatrice Palmes
Age: 3
Estimated birth year: abt 1888
Relation: Daughter
Father's name: William
Mother's name: Ellen
Gender: Female
Where born: Aston Botterell, Shropshire, England

Civil parish: Neenton
Ecclesiastical parish: Neenton
Town: Neenton
County/Island: Shropshire
Country: England

Street address: Millets

Registration district: Bridgnorth
Sub-registration district: Chetton
ED, institution, or vessel: 7
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
William Palmes 35 - labourer
Ellen Palmes 28
Annie Palmes 7
Violet Palmes 4
Beatrice Palmes 3
Leonard Palmes 2

Thanks Ozibird, the second one looks like it...what did you put in the search to find it?

I searched for Beatrice b 1897 +/- 2 years, Shropshire. No surname.

Looking for Leonard & Violet now.

Ozi.

So the marriage I found is the wrong one? 1887 and their first child Annie was born 1884.

Still can't read the place of Birth on both census'.


Having real problems tracing this family...marriage, 1881, Deaths, Marriages, Its hard to know what area to look in as the children seem to be born in different places to the 1901 and 1891 census.

Has anyone got any advice for me?

OK. It's probably best to find the children's births first to determine where the family were at certain times.

Going with the 1891 that ozi found, here's the first birth.

Name: William Leonard Palmer
Year of Registration: 1889
Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
District: Cleobury Mortimer
County: Herefordshire, Shropshire, Worcestershire
Volume: 6a
Page: 575


Be back soon with more.

Deb:)





Here's Beatrice:

Name: Beatrice Palmer
Year of Registration: 1888
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
District: Cleobury Mortimer
County: Herefordshire, Shropshire, Worcestershire
Volume: 6a
Page: 590





And Frederick:


Having probs finding the right one for Frederick. There's one in 89 but it's too close to William's to be him.


There's this one. It seems to be the only one that fits age-wise but not sure about district:


Name: Frederick Palmer
Year of Registration: 1892
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
District: Bridgnorth
County: Shropshire
Volume: 6a
Page: 559




Maybe Arthur. Age is out a bit though:



Name: Arthur George Palmer
Year of Registration: 1895
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
District: Bridgnorth
County: Shropshire
Volume: 6a
Page: 589





BINGO!!!!!! You've found the right marrige ref. Violet was born a Lloyd before the marriage.




Name: Violet Mary M Lloyd
Year of Registration: 1886
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
District: Cleobury Mortimer
County: Herefordshire, Shropshire, Worcestershire
Volume: 6a
Page: 673

Deb
Thanks for helping me out. I'm really stuck on this. Frederick was my grandfather whom my dad said was born in Wolverhampton. I have a copy of his death cert and now his marriage to Elsie Betsy Robinson in 1916. On the marriage cert it gives his address as 24 Coven St, Wolverhampton which matches the 1901 census address in Wolverhampton. On this census it gives William as his father (as per his marriage cert) & mother Ellen. William is down as being born at what I think may be Coalbrookdale but I cannot read it. Ellen from Stoke, Staffs. The places of birth for all the children are hard to read and it gives Fredericks birth as either Ranton, Salop or Neenton, Salop (can't read this either).

Ozi very kindly found the family as Palmes on the 1891 census, and the places of birth are different again...are they Salop (Shropshire) or Staffs??

What happened to the other children shown on 1891 census in 1901?

I've looked for Births, Deaths, marriages and am finding it difficult as they keep moving around and there are several candidates for each area.

Another thing..William's death. He is not shown as deceased on Frederick's marriage cert in 1916. Can't find a death either. Should be Wolverhampton, as they were living in W'ton on the 1901 census...or have they moved again and Frederick stayed in W'ton?

Lots of questions, but I need the answers....help!

Deb

The birth for William Leonard has got to be the wrong one....Frederick was born in 1892!

I've viewed both records and the 1891 gives William's birth place as Delbury, Salop and the 1901 as Coaldale.


Deb:)

Presumably Annie was a Lloyd too!

I think you have the right birth for Frederick as the age fits and Bridgnorth is not too far from W'ton.

Arthur could be the right one in 1895 if there is an Edward between 1892 & & 1895.

The William Leonard birth could be the Leonard in 1889 (or was that what you were thinking before).

It all seems to be fitting together. But where is William born around 1890? between Beatrice and Frederick?

Do you think Delbury should read Ledbury? Its not far away to the areas we are looking at.

OK. I'm sure we'll work this out eventually...lol

I think that the Leonard on the 1891 and the William on the 1901 is the same person. The birth ref that I found for William Leonard might actually be right. His age may have been recorded incorrectly on census.

There's a couple of births for Annie around 1884/85.

The birth places for William still read the same. Delbury, Salop and Coaldale, Salop.

Deb:)

Yes Deb
I think your right on the Leonard Palmer (william Leonard born 1889)

Found Edward.Ernest Edward Palmer 1897 Cleobury Mortimer Dec 1/4 6a 533

There was another entry for 1898 of a William Edward Palmer....but another William...doubt it!

The only doubt I have is that we have Frederick and Arthur George born in Bridgnorth and edward was born between according to the census....so the Arthur George would be wrong in 1895?

These are the births that could be Edward and Annie, but I'm not sure about any of them. There's no first name Edward within the right time frame. And I wonder if they'd have named two sons William!


Name: William Edward Palmer
Year of Registration: 1893
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
District: Atcham
County: Montgomeryshire, Shropshire
Volume: 6a
Page: 675



Name: Albert Edward Palmer
Year of Registration: 1896
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
District: Stourbridge
County: Shropshire, Staffordshire, West Midlands, Worcestershire
Volume: 6c
Page: 166



Name: Annie Lloyd
Year of Registration: 1884
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
District: Forden
County: Montgomeryshire, Shropshire
Volume: 11b
Page: 177



Name: Elizabeth Annie Lloyd
Year of Registration: 1884
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
District: Wolverhampton
County: Shropshire, Staffordshire, West Midlands
Volume: 6b
Page: 647



Name: Mary Annie Lloyd
Year of Registration: 1885
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
District: Wolverhampton
County: Shropshire, Staffordshire, West Midlands
Volume: 6b
Page: 584




Deb:)

What about these two for Arthur:

Name: Arthur Palmer
Year of Registration: 1899
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
District: Bridgnorth
County: Shropshire
Volume: 6a
Page: 634


Name: Arthur James Palmer
Year of Registration: 1896
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
District: Wolverhampton
County: Shropshire, Staffordshire, West Midlands
Volume: 6b
Page: 696



Deb:)

So, I'm thinking that if they had William Leonard's age wrong, they probably had the two youngest wrong too. The birth you found for Edward in 97 and the birth for Arthur in 99 just might be right.

Are these districts fairly wide-spread or not to far from each other?

Deb:)

I think that the Arthur in W'ton 1896 would be right as they were living there in 1901. 1899 would mean that he would be 2 in 1901...surely they wouldn't make that mistake with the ages? So perhaps Edward was W'ton too between 1892 & 1896....will have another look!

As far as the distance between the places are concerned...it depends on how you look at it...the range of discriptions (herefordshire/Shropshire/Worcestershire) and Herefordshire/Shropshire there are a few miles apart. Bridgnorth is not far from W'ton but I'm not sure about Cleobury Mortimer.

Recap:

Annie and Violet (off 1891 census) were Lloyds not Palmers.

Ellen Lloyd married William Palmer in 1887 Cleobury Mortimer

Violet Mary M Lloyd born 1886 Cleobury Mortimer

Beatrice Palmer born 1888 Cleobury Mortimer (aston Botterell on 1891 census, only 3 miles south from Cleobury North)

William Leonard Palmer born 1889 Cleobury Mortimer

Frederick Palmer born 1892 Bridgnorth, Salop (Neenton on 1891 census which is 1 mile north of Cleobury North)

Ernest Edward Palmer born 1897 Cleobury Mortimer (not sure if this is the right one)

They must have moved from Neenton, Salop to W'ton between 1892 and 1896 when Arthru was born so Edward could have been born in either place....need to check for a birth in W'ton between these two dates.

Arthur George Palmer 1895 Bridgnorth, Salop (not sure if this is the right one)

Arthur Palmer B1896 W'ton more likely.

On 1891 census, Ellen is born in Stoke Saint Milborough which is about 5 miles South West of Cleobury North. If the pair married in 1887 in Cleobury Mortimer, where was William in 1881? Unmarried or widowed? Perhaps Annie was his from a previous marriage? The Annie Lloyd birth you give me is in Montgomeryshire. Montgomery is heading too far west into Wales I think.

Dee