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Jack
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23 Oct 2014 11:35 |
I have a problem, tracing my grandfather on the 1901 or 1911 census. William George Henry France was born 1896 in St James Westminster, London.He's not with his parents on either the 1901 or 1911 Census at Cleveland street London. I do know as a boy he spent some time in the country at a place called Thaxted in Essex but I don't know where or who he was with as there are no other relations in that area that I can trace. However I couldn't find a marriage certificate for his parents until I discovered they didn't get married until 1915, having had two more sons in 1898 and 1901. He was around during the war as I have his war records - he was in the London Regiment 'The Rangers' Transport Division and worked with the horses. I knew him well as a boy and up until his death in 1975 - I just wish I'd quizzed him more about his family history - but that's a common story. He was reluctant to talk about his personal experiences in WW1. The family were, and still are a well known family of Funeral Directors in London. Anybody out there got any ideas?
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Rambling
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23 Oct 2014 12:33 |
Who were his parents please? Have you managed to find their parents in case William was with his grandparents on the census' ?
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Rambling
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23 Oct 2014 12:38 |
His birth reg has been handwritten in
seems to be Westminster 1a McL/55x ( though it could be HcL ?)
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Gritty
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23 Oct 2014 12:53 |
Just for reference:
According to Military records he was living at 22 Cleveland Street. Fitzroy Square, London in 1914
Just as a side note- I think Cleveland Street was where Charles Dickens grew up
Birth? William George H France Registration Year: 1896 Registration Quarter: Jul-Aug-Sep Registration district: Westminster Inferred County: London Volume: 1a Page: 495
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Gritty
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23 Oct 2014 13:27 |
His family in 1911:
William George France Head Married Male 34 1877 London Undertaker Harriet Amelia France Wife Married Female 34 1877 London - Charles Ernest France Son - Male 13 1898 London School Albert Alexander France Son - Male 11 1900 London School Annie Boyton Visitor Widow Female 54 1857 Hereford Wellington
Address 22 Cleveland St Parish St Pancras County London Registration district St Pancras Registration district number 9 Subdistrict South St Pancras Subdistrict number 2 Enumeration district 4 Piece number 687 Schedule number 546 Census reference RG14PN687 RG78PN24 RD9 SD2 ED4 SN546 Record set 1911 Census for England & Wales
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Potty
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23 Oct 2014 15:06 |
His birth seems to be in the index twice:
Births Jun 1896 (>99%) France William G H Westminster 1a _____ Scan available - click to view
Births Sep 1896 (>99%) France William George H Westminster 1a 495
It is the June entry that is handwritten - possibly it was a late registration; usually the reference would be to the month and year that the birth should have been registered. It could read Mch/55, which seem to indicate 1855 - obviously not, though, given his Army record (the x refers to the next handwritten entry, not his).
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rootgatherer
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23 Oct 2014 22:35 |
According to the 1911 census, Harriet has been married 16 years, 2 children born and 2 living. So it's a bit odd that she has 2 children with her. Had she forgotten about William, her firstborn?
Do you have William's birth certificate please? Does it state that Harriet is his mother? Just wondering why his parents didn't marry until 1915 if they were both free to marry.
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SylviaInCanada
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24 Oct 2014 01:11 |
Is this the marriage that you found for his parents??
Marriages Dec 1915 (>99%)
France William G Turton Marylebone 1a 1911 Turton Harriet A France Marylebone 1a 1911
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SylviaInCanada
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24 Oct 2014 01:32 |
1901 Census
Name Age William France 26 b.ca 1875, St James, London Harriett France 26 b.ca 1875, St Pancras, London Charles France 3 b.ca 1898, St James, London William Turton 20 b.ca 1881, St James, London, Boarder Mary Mantry 40 Servant
Address:- 26 Cleveland St
The following two are also listed on ancestry record a living with the Frances, but in fact live next door at No. 24
William Vinaup 30 Boarder Walter Schomman 26 Boarder
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SylviaInCanada
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24 Oct 2014 01:33 |
Have you bought his birth certificate?
If so, who does it name as his mother?
If not, it might help.
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SylviaInCanada
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24 Oct 2014 03:19 |
This looks like him on the 1920 Electoral Registaer
London, England, Electoral Registers, 1832-1965 about William George Henry France
Name: William George Henry France Year: 1920 County or Borough: Camden Ward or Division/Constituency: St Pancras
Address:- 22 Cleveland St
Also living there (of voting age)
Harriet Amelia France William George France (senr)
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SylviaInCanada
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24 Oct 2014 03:26 |
According to his service record ............ he was a Butcher ??????????/
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SylviaInCanada
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24 Oct 2014 03:36 |
I don't know whether you have this .............
Probate record for his father names WGH as one of the Administrators
England & Wales, National Probate Calendar (Index of Wills and Administrations), 1858-1966 about William George France
Name: William George France Probate Date: 1 Apr 1953 Death Date: 27 Jul 1952 Death Place: London, England Registry: London, England
From image:-
France, William George, of 22 Cleveland Street, St Pancras, London, died 27 July 1952 at The Middlesex Hospital, Mortimer Street, London, W1. Administration [granted] London 1 April 1953 to William George Henry France, Stores Clerk, and Charles Ernest France, Funeral Director. Effects £4545 7s 10d
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SylviaInCanada
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24 Oct 2014 03:47 |
It's almost as though WGH was not acknowledged by either parent when he was young, but then he was after a certain date.
He may have been a nurse child, living with relatives, at school, or in an institution ...........
but what made them then accept him into the family?
and mixed in with this, is why did William George and Harriet Amelia not marry until 1915?
That usually doesn't happen unless one or both are already married, and have to wait for the other partner(s) to die.
It might be educational to get their marriage certificate to see if it says anything about their marital status in 1915
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SylviaInCanada
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24 Oct 2014 04:02 |
I don't know whether you have this .............
Probate record for his father names WGH as one of the Administrators
England & Wales, National Probate Calendar (Index of Wills and Administrations), 1858-1966 about William George France
Name: William George France Probate Date: 1 Apr 1953 Death Date: 27 Jul 1952 Death Place: London, England Registry: London, England
From image:-
France, William George, of 22 Cleveland Street, St Pancras, London, died 27 July 1952 at The Middlesex Hospital, Mortimer Street, London, W1. Administration [granted] London 1 April 1953 to William George Henry France, Stores Clerk, and Charles Ernest France, Funeral Director. Effects £4545 7s 10d
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SylviaInCanada
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24 Oct 2014 04:09 |
This looks like father WG with his parents in 1881 ..............
1881 Census
Name: Henry W. France Age: 44 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1837 Relationship to Head: Head Spouse: Kate France Gender: Male Where born: Westminster, Surrey, England Civil Parish: St Pancras County/Island: London Country: England Street address: 46 Judd St Marital Status: Married
Occupation: Undertaker Registration district: Pancras Sub registration district: Grays Inn Lane ED, institution, or vessel: 3a
Piece: 191 Folio: 27 Page Number: 47
Henry W. France 44 Kate France 24 Henry J. France 20 Clara A. France 18 Helen V. France 15 Charles E. France 13 Matilda E. France 9 >>>>>>William G. France 6 Hetty C. F. France 2 John Martin 15 Servant
Father's full name from other sources is Henry William France
and Henry William in 1901 .......... with a new wife, but no WGH
1901 Census
Name: Henry W France [Henry William France] Age: 61 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1840 Relation to Head: Head Gender: Male Spouse: Hetty France Birth Place: Westminster [Elgland] [Middlesex] Civil Parish: St James Ecclesiastical parish: St Luke County/Island: London Country: England
Registration district: Westminster Sub-registration district: St James, Westminster ED, institution, or vessel: 8b
Piece: 98 Folio: 100 Page Number: 5 Household schedule number: 602
Henry W France 61 Undertaker Hetty France 38 Claude France 7 Clara Bowdrey 37 daughter Ida Bowdrey 7 granddaughter
If Harriet Amelia was the daughter of a Richard Turton, as the only record I found could indicate ................ then WGH was not with that family either in 1901
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Click ADD REPLY button - not this link!
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24 Oct 2014 07:45 |
Think that June 1896 registration should say March 53
Birth was registered very late:
Births Mar 1953 FRANCE William G H TURTON Westminster 5c 402
Perhaps he needed his birth certificate but didn't see the Sept registration?
Rose
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Chris Ho :)
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24 Oct 2014 08:00 |
Cremation Register summary France William George Cremation date 31 July 1952 Authority Kensal Green Location West London Crematorium (Kensington and Chelsea)
https://www.deceasedonline.com/servlet/GSDOSearch
(from above link)
Chris :)
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Mary
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24 Oct 2014 11:19 |
Can you see Albert Alexander France birth? Death 1973 states birth 22/8/1900 London.
I can't seem to find military records on Ancestry for W G H France,does it mention parents and siblings on those you have found?
Maryb
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Potty
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24 Oct 2014 11:47 |
Havent found Albert, but Charles Ernest has the same sort of rev as Willam. He is shown twice in 1898 and one entry has Mar 53. Sorry can't post as don't know how to C&P on a tablet
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