Genealogy Chat

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/CensusInfoFreed

Please sign the e-petition to get the census information released early. The link will be below. Cheers Naomi

Naomi are they planning to release these census early then? Lin

Have added my name. Thanks Naomi. Over a thousand signatures so far. Liz

1931 doesn't even exist.........destroyed in WW2 Reg

According to this website there IS a 1931 census. It was the 1941 census that wasn't taken I believe because of the war: http://www.visionofbritain.org.uk/census/census_page.jsp?yr=1931&show=DB

Oi Reg do you get the feeling no one wants to answer our queries? Lin

Lin, Not really, but at the risk of being labelled a misery, i have to say the 'petition' is a complete waste of time and effort.........this subject has been 'done to death' over the years, and the 100 year closure is still in force. As it should be, in my opinion............ Reg

I didn't say 1931 wasn't taken.................... Reg

I beg Reg's pardon it WAS destroyed: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK_Census

Agree with Reg - petition is a complete and utter waste of time. Parliament will NOT discuss this again in the lifetime of this government. Guy Etchells has recently won, in my opinion, a pyrrhic victory over the 1911 census. Everyone now has the right, under the Freedom of Information Act, to see information from the 1911 census. There are one or two conditions attached to this right. You must know the exact name and address of the person you are seeking. You will only receive 'nonsensitive' information about that person and you will not receive information about the other people in the household. The search anfd find fee is now £45 - that is, £45 for each NAME, not each household. The pyrrhic victory bit is this - you have ALWAYS been able to access the 1911, on the above terms. But it used to be £20 per search, not £45! Thanks, Guy. OC

The 100 disclosure rule is no more. The 100 year disclosure rule has been abolished ( FOI Act 2000 ). There is thus no legal difference between the 1911 & 1921 ( Other that more people will be alive ) The decision as to whether censuses are released lies with Government / Parliament and the public are free to petition them as they wish to change the law or policy. Exactly as the Society of Genealogists did with previous censuses which were released early. If you don't agree with it don't sign it but please don't keep trying to undermine and pour cold water on the efforts of others. If people hadn't campaigned then women might not have the vote. Parliament can discuss what it wishes. (early day motions, private members bils etc ) Other countries release censuses earlier than we do Bob

I thought there was a difference between the 1911 and the 1921 census in that the 1921 census was conducted under the 1920 census act which will stop disclosure under 100 years. thought i had read it somewhere http://www.ffhs(.)org(.)uk/Societies/Latest/index(.)htm Please note that Government policy is that the 1921 and subsequent censuses should remain closed for 100 years. Unlike the 1911 census, the 1921 census was conducted under the 1920 Census Act, which is still in force and which contains a statutory prohibition on disclosure. This means that if any Freedom Of Information Act (FOI) requests are received for the 1921 census, the exemption found in S44 of the FOI Act will be invoked to maintain census confidentiality. (The 1921 census is not held by TNA and remains, like all subsequent censuses, in the custody of the Office for National Statistics (ONS). p.s If you are told that something would not be released for 100 years then you expect that promise to be kept.

OC, I can't answer your other points re Guy but I do know that Guy wasn't responsible for this particular petition! ;-) Apparently the 1931 Scottish census wasn't destroyed. Cheers, Horatia

Willow it's no good quoting organizations like the ONA & TNA they have been ruled against ! No censuses up to 1981 ever mentioned 100 years They had general statements about confidentiality. The 100 year rule defined that as 100 years in 1966. This has been abolished. The TNA were trying to use S44 FOI act to continue the rule. Even the post 1981 census '100 year' statements have been ruled non binding as they were given by the Registrar General without the authority of parliament. Bob

I am posting this on behalf of Guy Etchells who can't post on GR. Please see the end of the message if you wish to discuss this further with Guy - I am only the intermediary and I'm not as clued up on these matters as Bob, OC or Guy! ;-) This is Guy: I am sorry but in my opinion the petition is rather badly thought out and is liable to do more harm than good. The 1911 census is covered by different legislation than the later census and different rules apply. First there is no 100 year rule for the any census; that was imposed in 1966 by the Lord Chancellor's Instrument no. 12 of 1966 which was repealed in 2000 by the Freedom of information Act. The Lord Chancellor has the power to release the 1911 census early, today if the will was there. The 1921 and later census come under the 1920 Census Act as amended by the Census (Confidentiality) Act 1991. This prohibits the release of information from the census without limitation. Which means parliament (Lord Chancellor) could decide to refuse to release the later census ever if they so wished. At present there are loop-holes that may allow early access to the later census, badly worded petitions could result in these loop-holes being closed before a ruling is made to establish access. I would also point out that when the 1911 census was taken most census were released after 50 to 80 years not 100 years. The 1931 England & Wales census was destroyed by fire due to enemy action but the 1931 Scottish census is in the archives waiting to be released. The statistics from the various census up to 2001 are released after about a year or so but these do not include names so are of little use for genealogy. Guy Etchells PS if anyone wishes to contact me about this just google “Guy Etchells” for my email.

Hi Horatia Please thank Guy for clarifying that.

Willow, He can read the boards but can't post. ;-) He says he's a tight wad! His words not mine! But I'll make sure he knows about your response. :-) Cheers, Horatia

In genealogy Guy is one of the most experienced Guys around ! He has many of the original acts on his site. I do not agree however that the petition can do any harm. If you told the government that changing the law on censuses would win them the next election they would change it tomorrow. Bob

Bob It is not a question of trying to undermine people's efforts, it is a question of looking at the FACTS. For instance - no English 1931 census now exists - so why are people petitioning for it to be released early. I agree with Guy here, the petition is badly worded and likely to do more harm than good - baying for the release of a census which does not exist merely makes the signatories look stupid. The early release of previous censuses, as orchestrated by the SOG, was an entirely different matter - how many of us belong to SOG, even today? At the time they moved to have the census released early, very few people, other than professional genealogists were interested and you had to go to Kew to see it, thus ensuring that only the really interested professionals saw it, and presumably used the information with the discretion that membership of SOG demands. I would LOVE, purely as a family historian, to see the early release of all censuses - but who is to pay for that release? Are you happy for your taxes to go up, to cover the cost - an enormous cost, if you want it done quickly. And should the censuses be released early, then I shall go to prison, rather than ever fill in another one. There is a principle at stake here - what will come next? The publishing of living people's medical records? Their prison records? The very early censuses were never intended to be made public, which is why they carry no clause about release date - they said simply that the information was confidential and would NEVER be released. OC