General Chat

Well, thats a matter of opinion though. I disagree because i dispute there is a god.

But you cant escape the fact that in many places, children are taught through fear. Its the oldest method of teaching anything.

Unfortunately, cyn, you are wrong, totally wrong when you call your god unconditionally loving. Remind yourself of the first few lines of the funeral service.

"he who believeth in me.......etc"

If thats not conditional, what is? He only gives his love in return for blind unwavering belief and faith in him, yet refuses to provide any evidence that he is even there. Not conditional? Come on!

But in my case as soon as I didn't 'believe' Florence, my mind was more open and receptive to other ideas. Life and it's origins made more sense as I grew up and learned about science and evolution. Many things are still to be discovered or explained, but I believe advances in science will continue to provide answers.

Still going round in circles then? :-)

Sorry, don't agree Eldrick my friend........

WE separate ourselves from God, not Him from us.

He gives us freewill.

We can either choose to follow the way he sets out for us....

or not.


If we choose to follow, then we will work with the guidelines. It doesn't mean we don't argue with Him or disagree or question...but something keeps us there and we plod on, learning and growing.


If we choose NOT to follow that path that He sets out and lead our lives without Him, that is OUR choice, it is NOT us being rejected.


He will still love us.......but He will be saddened as a mother is saddened when her child rejects her.


No-one is forced to become a Christian remember. The choice is entirely personal.


As for evidence/proof.........sigh.....I know there's absolutely no point in me going down the life of Jesus...the writings/the testimonies/the witnesses/the 2000 yr history.........nope....thought not - you'll only come back at me with the same old argument...... :-D



Anyway, even IF it were possible to plonk a tangible image of God in front of you, I would imagine you would say it was an imposter....... :-D




I went for a stroll this morning and something crossed my mind. You don't seem to be satisfied with anything unless you can touch it, hear it, see it...etc.


Have you never experienced a 'tense' atmosphere in a room?
You know something is wrong but you can neither see it nor touch it but you know it's there all the same.


Or maybe experienced a feeling of excitement within the people you are with, maybe at a football match?
They are jumping up and down, shouting and cheering but you can't actually touch that excitement.


What about the smell of something baking? You can see the cake, but you can't see the smell nor can you touch it.....but it's there all the same.


You get my drift.........but I know I am banging my head against a brickwall.
:-)




Annx, you are very fortunate to know that you are not wicked. I hope I'm not wicked either but I do know that I could improve on some things in my life. :-D

Rose........my little legs are quite worn out with all this circling.....quite dizzyfied I am......


but I plod on........cos .....well, you know why I plod on.... :-D

It has often been said, or inferred (not necessarily on this thread, or by anyone on here, I hasten to add!) that non-believers only 'believe' in what can be seen or proven, and that their lives are 'diminished' as a result. Of course I have 'sensed' certain atmospheres, happy/sad/tense etc. but these are still based on using our senses - looking at body language, facial expressions, or listening to sounds etc. That, to me, is very different from believing in a god who loves me, but I can't see or hear or feel or smell anything that confirms this!

There is so much on earth to see, to hear, to touch, and be amazed by - enough for 50 lifetimes! I don't need anything 'spiritual'.

Boy.....I'm really outnumbered on here aren't I?


Not to worry.... I am still happy to stand up and be counted.


:-D :-D :-D :-D :-D

And so you should be, Cynthia :-) <3 (happy to stand up, that is, and not outnumbered ;-))

Not quite what I said Cynthia. I said as a child I knew I had done nothing wicked. Nothing that a child would think should bring about the punishment in unkind treatment I was given. I do remember praying .......that I could be an orphan and have a new home.........takes quite a bit for a shy, fearful child to feel like that. Of course disappointment was inevitable as there was no response or change in answer to my prayer.

I would never use the phrase 'fortunate in knowing I am not wicked' about myself at all. That would be an arrogant view and is not the way I think. As for faults, we all have some of those we need to work on....... :-D

Cynthia, I am sure that you are really not bothered about being outnumbered. Your faith is amazing and puts mine to shame. I have to add here that, although I attended church unfailingly until I was in my early 20s and was baptised by immersion when I was fifteen, I became disillusioned with the Baptist teachings being so narrow minded and, once we moved away from home I failed to find, or maybe I didn't try very hard, a church to attend. Incidentally I also attended a Church of England primary school but I was never taught that if I was naughty (as a child) I would be punished by God. I was taught that He would be sad.

My parents were committed christians until the day they died, my Mother was very narrow minded, they were both life long Baptists as were all my grandparents. But, while not attending church, I do still have a strong faith so you do not stand entirely alone. I just don't have the words to 'tackle' Eldick's.

Incidentally, my sister who had the same early schooling and church upbringing now leans towards Spiritualism.

Yes, I have experienced all those things and I can explain all those things. Scent...? I know what scent is, I know about pheremones, I know about body language, I know about neurons, dopomine, endorphins. Science can explain quite adequately all of the things you describe, but just because they can be explained doesn't take away their wonder or beauty. Beauty, love, whatever doesn't need to be a divinely given gift to be so.

You see, religion is in denial, always has been. It was created to explain things that, in those times, were inexplicable. As time moves on, religion has had to move as well. Galileo and Copernicus - the church insisted they were wrong. Only recently did they apologise! The biggest shift was Darwin - yet still otherwise educated and sane people believe in talking snakes and boats full of animals. What nonsense is that!

People such as me are often accused of being close minded, somehow inferior because we dont believe in god or jesus. To the contrary, I am more open minded than the most devout christian. I am more than willing - would dearly love it - to believe in god. All I ask - its not a lot to ask, after all - is a sign, some evidence, some indication. Thats all. Then I will gladly give all my money to Mother Teresas slush fund and wear a hair shirt. I am wiling, eager in fact, to be convinced. But if all you can offer me is a book - well, sorry, thats not enough. Science trumps a book. Every time. If you can tell me why god is better than allah is better than krishna or odin, then I am listening. I am waiting for a coherent argument or demonstration, anything. But all I ever hear is 'I believe cos I believe and its in the bible'. So I shake my head and continue to wear what I want, eat what I want, sleep with whom I want and work when I want with no fear of offending a ghost and content that what will be will be.

So, to sum up, as we are at the circular stage, I agree - my assertion is that god is not great, he is not there and if he is, why doesnt he show himself or present a coherent argument for him being there. And if he is there, what an evil, twisted, malevolent, capricious, genocidal, mysogynistic, homophobic being he is. I want no part of him until he changes his ways. But I do look forward to the day when someone can refute these charges!

Its been fun and I hope we can all stay friends, despite not agreeing :-D

If God gave a sign in letters a mile high across golden skies with angels, bells and whistles Eldrick...perhaps half the world would say it was a US conspiracy, 45 % say it was mass hallucination, 3 % would say they weren't sure what it was, 1 % would be ridiculously happy and the remaining 1 % would kill themselves.... percentages approximate lol.

I am giving up on the 'debate' now though

btw my emoticons aren't working !

Yep, you're probably right. I'd prefer a miracle, though. Its not much to ask. I mean, just one, a little one. Something easy - like bringing Elvis back to life or stopping the killing in Afghanistan. He's so keen to have more followers, if he just appeared and did something so that everyone could know he was there, how good would that be. An end to all this strife, suffering, death and destruction.

But no, he wont do it. But be sure to keep the 10 commandments - especially the first 4 and one day, he might. Yeah, right. Whatever.

Personally, I pray to my tame unicorn Eric every day, I have a golden calf on the mantlepiece called Horace to whom I sacrifice spiders twice a week, say 'christ on a bike' and For Gods Sake' (and other things) several times a day, make a point of having a wednesday off and working every sabbath and bank holiday. Good job I dont have any neighbors, isn't it :-)

I dont rob, steal or murder, though. But then again, I didnt need a book to tell me that was wrong :-) The adultery thing is up in the air, juries still out on that one. It's OK for the mormons, so maybe there is something in it.

Eldrick,

You are saying if god bought Elvis back you would believe? you surprise me there? the killing would still be going on, wouldn,t it?

It would not end the suffering bringing Elvis back.

shocked :-0 and sacrificing little spiders!! thought you did not kill?

Just adding a little humour!

FLo

Well, spiders was the best option. I was struggling to justify the first born of every virgin, which would have been much more Cecil B. So I'm afraid spiders got the short straw. Sorry, but a sacrifice is a sacrifice, You cant make an omelette without cracking the odd egg I'm afraid.

And yes, of course, bringing elvis back would restore world peace. There would be a whole lot of loving going on and with a little less conversation, we'd all get shook up and it woodent heart to have a Change of Habit.

Couldnt fit Jailhouse Rock in, but I will keep trying.

I,m amazed!! you saying you were struggling with words!

I,m not the only one then?

It gets better!! you do have a soft spot , even if it is just for Elvis.
well its a start ?

Love Elvis myself !!

wow ! Eldrick stuck on words ? well i never!! tee, hee.

FLo

Well, I could, but this is a family site.....

Actually, no, Im a Val Doonican man myself, but it's difficult to get all profound when Delaneys Donkey and Walk Tall are all you have to work with.

:-D :-D :-D ;-).

plenty of room so will stand next to me buddy,,,,


now,,,,just a point of interest ,where you get all them 8 legged creepers from.. :-)

The bath, where else? OK, theres a few live in my wallet.

:-D

Okay Eldrick my friend.....I think this dialogue has run its course


I know that science is wonderful and that there are constant new discoveries, but I am inadequate to answer your scientific theories and it may be better for you to look at the Christians in Science website and discuss things with people who are more familiar with your type of query and argument.


There are scientists who are Christians, so I guess someone will be able to hold an interesting conversation with you.


Meanwhile, I will move on...........Maundy Thursday and time for church....

See you around......Cyn. :-D