General Chat

I have just received a birth certificate for a birth registered in 1906. The section for name and occupation of father are blank. The mother was definitely married and the baby registered under her married name. Would this mean that her husband was not the father of the child and whoever was was not named because he was not present at the registration or could the father still have been her husband but also still not named as he was not present? Thanks for any help.

I would think that the birth was indexed in the woman's then surname as she was a married woman.
It sounds very much as if the child was illegitimate and so the father could not be named without him being present.

Have you found the family in 1911 to see what the situation was then?

Post some names here if you would like help with that search.

EDIT
Sometimes a baptism record will name the father of an illegitimate child.



Gwyn

It might, but even if paternity was in doubt it's likely a husband would want his name on a birth cert if he was raising the child as his own.

The Registration Act of 1874 states:
"The putative father of an illegitimate child cannot be required as father to give information respecting the birth. The name, surname and occupation of the putative father of an illegitimate child must not be entered except at the joint request of the father and mother; in which case both the father and mother must sign the entry as informants"

What does the child's baptism say about who the child's father is?

Is the mother's husband with her and the son on the 1911 census?

The husband was in the workhouse in 1911 and the mother dead. The child was in a cottage home. There is no record of a baptism. Workhouse records show that they were living at the same address at around the time of conception but as both were constantly in and out of the workhouse and often readmitted and discharged to different addresses its almost impossible to even second guess it. Thanks for suggestions.

The husband was in the workhouse in 1911 and the mother dead. The child was in a cottage home. There is no record of a baptism. Workhouse records show that they were living at the same address at around the time of conception but as both were constantly in and out of the workhouse and often readmitted and discharged to different addresses its almost impossible to even second guess it. Thanks for suggestions.

A birth will be registered in the mothers current name whether that is her single name or her married name.

If the husband is the father of the child then his name is on the cert and he has no need to attend the registration of the child .

If the husband wasnt the father then to have a fathers name put on the cert the father would have to acknowledge paternity and attend the birth registration.

SO is no dad is named then the child was illegitimate and the father never acknowledged paternity

Thankyou for that Shirley. It answers a lot of strange things in the family history and as I can find no record of the child after 1911 am wondering if at some point she changed her name to either that of her birth father or her mothers maiden name. I doubt I will ever find out.

she could well have lived until 1970 when birthdates began to be recorded in the GRO deaths index

have you tried searching the index by given name (with middle name or initial if any) and the exact date of birth to see whether anything seems to match?

then it is a matter of trying to find a birth or marriage to account for each death and that is not always possible

and of course birthdates on death certificate are not always accurate (especially the year for people born in the early 1900s or before)

but it could be worth a try

even if she was taken in by a family, she would likely have kept her given name(s)

Have you typing in the address that they gave that is on the 1911 census to see who else may have been living there?

Will try the death records especially as I cannot find any marriage records. In answer toZZzzz as said earlier her mother was dead by 1911 census and her mothers husband and sister in the workhouse so there are no leads there.

Is the address they have given, the one on the workhouse records the same as the one around the time of conception, that's the one I meant for you to check out to see who else may have been there IE were they lodgers, maybe the head of the household was the child's grandparents.

Sorry I'm not very good at explaining myself.

The workhouse records just give the husbands address as inmate in Walton workhouse and the 2 children's addresses are as inmates in 2 different cottage homes.

The workhouse records just give the husbands address as inmate in Walton workhouse and the 2 children's addresses are as inmates in 2 different cottage homes.

I think what ZZzzz is getting at ... you said

'Workhouse records show that they were living at the same address at around the time of conception'

that is, the parents were living together around the time of conception?

that address - the one where the parents were living together around the time of conception - have you checked that address in the 1911 census to see who was there in that year?

I would add, is there an address for the mother on the child's birth certificate, and have you checked that address in the 1911 as well? (of course if the address on the certificate is the workhouse ...)

we are having to use descriptions of people and places since we don't have the names and addresses and that is perfectly understandable if you prefer not to say them but it can make questions and answers less clear :-)

and I wonder whether you saw my suggestion about searching the deaths index ...

Thank you JoonieCloonie, that is what I meant, you explained it much better than I did. :-)

Thank you Joonie. Sorry for the gap in responding but I had to leave the computer for a bit. The address on the birth certificate is completely different from any address given over a period of about 14 years from when they married in 1897 to the date of the last workhouse records I have. I have asked for help with this family previously but as this thread started with a general question didn't want to risk upsetting anyone by mentioning the names again as I was given a lot of help regarding this family on a previous thread. However as you have asked. Thomas Meadley and Anna Lloyd married in1897 and lived in Holly Street, Everton where their first daughter Mary Ann was born in 1902. I have never been able to find a birth certificate for her but do have a record of her baptism. During research through Liverpool Record Office I discovered that the family spent years in and out of the workhouse and unknown previously to me had a second daughter Sarah in 1906. Ann died in 1911and Thomas in1946 and Mary Ann ,the mother of the friend for whom I am researching was in Fazakerley Cottage homes until she went into service. She never mentioned having a sister so we are unsure if she even knew of her existence. The last information I have re Sarah is in Olive Mount Home in the 1911 census and then she vanishes. I sent for her birth certificate to check if Thomas was her father but obviously not. Understand now whatZZzzz meant and will follow up both lots of suggestions asap. TThank you both so much.

this is why I have always hated 'general questions' ... it just isn't possible to suggest answers without the actual facts ... best to ask those questions in the thread they relate to?

so if you look in the 1911 census for the address on Sarah 1906's birth certificate, let us know if you find anything tasty :-)


......... I remember now that I see the name ... she was registered as Meadly

and we had another of those 'general questions' about her not long ago .........

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/ancestors/thread/1338460?page=1

... where I suggested the birthdate search of deaths!

if you want some help with that search just post up her date of birth

.......... and I'm sure you won't delete any other threads now!

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/genealogy_chat/thread/1338170

(where brummiejan had suggested the birthdate search of deaths)

Good morning. Gave up last night but on the case again this morning! Looked back at the thread where you and Brummiejan suggested searching deaths JoonieCloonie and you will see that I did look but found nothing. I also followed your advice and sent for Sarah's birth certificate which is the one I have just received that lists no name for the father. It does however give me the full birth date which is 10th June 1906 and birth address is 16 Thistle Terrace, Rose Place. It was registered on16th August and does contain something I don' t understand. Under Registration District it says 'Birth in the sub district of Scotland in the County of Liverpool ' That doesn't make sense as a) Liverpool was a city at that time in the County of Lancashire and b)to my knowledge there was no sub district of Liverpool called Scotland although there was an area called Scotland Road. Can you throw any light on that please? Haven't had a chance to research possible links regarding the birth address yet but will be on to it asap.

well if you recall we suggested the search of deaths by birthdate once you knew the birthdate ... which you didn't until you got the birth certificate :-) so you couldn't do that search then ...

I don't know the history or geography but it does seem that 'Scotland' is a sub-district of Liverpool district

http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/genuki/Reg/districts/liverpool.html

perhaps it does refer to the Scotland Road area?


so after 1969 there were 13 Sarahs died with dob of 10 June 1906

although 4 of them had Sarah as a middle name so that leaves 9

2 in Stockport and 2 in Lancaster are closest geographically

of them only the 2 in Stockport had no middle name

but there are also one in Beverley and one in Enfield with no middle name

but odds are probably that she died before then I guess ... or of course that she or the informant of her death never knew her correct birthdate


in 1911 16 Thistle Terrace Rose Place was occupied by

Name: William Guy
Age in 1911: 48
Estimated birth year: abt 1863
Relation to Head: Head
Birth Place: Liverpool, Lancashire, England

Name: Sarah Guy
Age in 1911: 50
Estimated birth year: abt 1861
Relation to Head: Wife
Birth Place: Liverpool, Lancashire, England

Civil Parish: Liverpool
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street address: 16 Thistle Terrace Rose Place Lpool
Marital Status: Married
Occupation: Carter General
Registration district: Liverpool
Registration District Number: 453
Sub-registration district: Scotland

married 8 years, 0 childrenprobably

Marriages Dec 1904
Gavin Sarah Liverpool 8b 29
Guy William Liverpool 8b 29

so they would not have been there in 1901 and anytime in between would be unknown

but the Meadley couple were living in Holly Street 'around the time of conception'?

you keep holding pieces of the jigsaw puzzle that you don't turn over so we can see them ...