General Chat

The "enemy" in WW2 was pretty well defined I think you'll agree?

So you would suggest what? that young Syrian men who support neither Assad nor IS just wait on the borders of their country in some sort of limbo until one side or the other is the 'winner' or everyone's dead, or that they go back as some sort of 'resistance' and fight against both...with what, backed by whom?

How would you say they could best 'fight' for their country in that situation?

Possibly by leaving while they can and returning some time in the future to rebuild it having made a decent life elsewhere and possibly learnt the value of living in a democracy?

There are no easy answers.

It's all relative isn't it.

Sorry Kay, whilst we didn't agree on everything you certainly did not jump down my throat and I didn't mean to include you in that !!

Like I've said equal treatment......the city are saying they might open a closed hospital in Toronto to house the refugees....well let some of the homeless in there too then there's plenty of room.....when it gets really cold we open up extra temp shelters the rest of the winter there's very limited shelter available even when it's well below freezing.

Again I think we can agree to disagree..........

Oh, how I wish I had never started this thread! I was so proud to be a Canadian helping our fellow man. So happy to see all of those smiling faces on the refugees, especially the children.

There is absolutely no comparison of the plight of the refugees as compared to fellow Canadians. This is the land of opportunity and anything can be accomplished if one is willing to work for it.

Margee,
whilst that is true in many cases it is not true in some. People that freeze to death on the street of Toronto for instance are often suffering from Mental health problems or other health problems. Also many are willing to work but if all they can get is minimum wage employment then they often can't do more than live hand to mouth in big cities like Toronto.

I don't wish to argue with you, Caroline.

Nor I with you I was just stating the facts.

Of course home grown problems should be tackled, nowhere have I said otherwise.

And if there is the will to do it, I suspect there is certainly the money, IF it is used properly and not wasted on the excesses of the rich and their lackeys in government ( my personal opinion of our present government, can't speak for Canada...I don't know, I live here)


But equally, so far as I know, no woman in Canada is slaughtered and buried in a mass grave because she is too old to be a sex slave to IS? Nor are children gassed by their own government, nor are you doomed to die because you follow a different religion, or because you want a democratically elected government ( or not even that in fact, just to have the freedom to live and bring up your children in safety).

Rambling Rose,
I'm not disagreeing with any of that, but if not the local fit young men then who should stand up to IS ? It's pretty clear they will carry on until they're stopped.
Maybe the Western countries should be arming and training them on the borders so they can reclaim their homes.

Maybe if the West hadn't supported Assad in the first place, IS would not have developed? We, as well as the people of the country in question, pay the price for supporting governments that we should probably not support? ( usually because morals are less important than the oil supply, arms deals, trade etc?)

Maybe young men should stay, or maybe if it were my son (and after all it is just an accident of location that it is not my son or yours) I would say 'go west young man and find a safer place where you can live longer than me, leave this place behind'.

IS is a grouping of like-mined people from many different countries as you're aware. No mother wants their child to fight any war, but if all mothers had their way over the years where would we be right now.
Going west isn't an option as they will eventually get there too given the chance.

Where would we be right now? Presumably not in Canada.

There's a difference between fighting a war in which the enemy is clearly identified, as a potential invader. You do have to be able to pick a side surely? To know which one to fight for and who to fight against. That's why I said there is no comparison to WW2. The Nazi's and their allies were the enemy...you knew what and who you were fighting, and of course no mother wanted to let their son or daughter go to war...but there was a clear reason, a clear threat.

I ask again, who are you expecting these young men to fight, both Assad and IS together? If so I would assume you think that the West as a whole should arm them, train them and join them in the fight to bring down both Assad and IS? I'm not saying that's wrong, though it is not a particularly popular viewpoint over here at least, getting involved in another war, certainly not in committing ground troops to the region.

I'm also a very proud Canadian at what has been achieved by this new government of ours, and all the people helping .....

and I must point out that ALL the refugees who have arrived in Canada so far are privately sponsored ones, because those applications had been in the works for a year or more, yet our previous government had not been acting in good faith.

Therefore, the 163 who arrived on Thursday and the 162 who will land in Montreal in a few short hours are having their expenses paid by sponsors, housing etc etc paid or supplied by the sponsors.


There is also plenty of evidence from past experiences with such refugees (from Africa in the 70s, Vietnam in the 80s, and on and on) that the adults will be off welfare as soon as they can possibly be. They will end up paying back more in taxes than many others.

If that means supplying them with language and skill training, then so be it ............... it's well worth it in the end.


I agree that every country has got its own problems with the homeless and jobless ................ but I grudge nothing that is done to help the true refugee.


And also remember that the refugees that are coming in at the moment are all families, single parents (father or mother) with children, orphans, etc, including a lot of family reunification.

The government chosen refugees will start coming in later, and will include in addition to the groups already mentioned, those who might be in danger because of their sexual orientation.

Otherwise, young single men will be subject to further security checks before a decision is made on their admittance.

My french grandmother (married to an englishman) caught the last boat over from France to Bristol during WW2, I have spoken of her before.

She worked hard for 19 years in a factory, without taking a day off. She had to wash her clothes at night and put them on damp in the morning. She had no knickers for three years.

I would have loved her to have had a pair. She didn't know of the Red Cross and certainly repaid the little help she was given, eventually owning her own shop.

Rose has said it all and very succinctly.

But in answer to this question, "I'm not disagreeing with any of that, but if not the local fit young men then who should stand up to IS ?"

Maybe people who have weapons. Local fit young men aren't armed or army trained. Daft question.

well I wish I could remember what I had posted that has since been reported, perhaps someone might remember and remind me?

Oh yes I do remember, how odd to have reported that though..unless it was thought it off topic? which in a way I suppose it was, but I mentioned this only in relation to arming young men, my thought process being that you really do have to know WHO you are arming first, or you put the arms closer to where the terrorists can use them perhaps?

I give the link rather than the quoted article,

http://www.rawstory.com/2015/12/gun-linked-to-paris-attacks-traced-back-to-florida-arms-dealer-implicated-in-iran-contra-scandal/

EDIT as an afterthought. I wonder if it was reported because the article I quoted ( posted on FB) included the name of the company that sold the gun and named individuals, both of whom had every legal right to sell it. Perhaps it was felt they should not be so named on here, in which case the report was understandable...but you could just have asked me to edit :-)

For the record in case there was any confusion I did not report you Rambling Rose.

Guinevere, it wasn't a daft question I also stated we should arm and train them.

Someone has to stop IS so why not with the help of the local fit young men.

Margee I'm sorry your post got twisted like it did, I never ever said they shouldn't be allowed over here I just asked for equal funding to others.

I didn't think you had Caroline, I was just a bit surprised that of all my posts that was the one that went, ie because it wasn't 'my words' but a direct quote from a news article :-) I'm sure someone had a good reason though.

:-)