General Chat

been thinking about this and at the moment I'm thinking I want out

It's a tough one, we really need honesty and unbiased information from the powers that be to make an informed choice.................not going to happen though is it :-(

I am sat sitting on the fence at the moment :-S

UK and the EU: Better off out or in?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-32793642

It's out for me, I voted out last time but the let's not change anything squad won.

Had the vote been to join back then the outcome would probably have been stay out.

I think the same will happen again, fear of standing alone on our own two feet will keep us in. We seem to have stood on our own two feet in the past OK why not again. In fact back in 1939 it was that which saved Europe!

I was made redundant and having been in the same job for 30 years that was daunting, best thing that could have happened went self employed and never looked back! :-D

Its also OUT for me too

This country are paying far to much out
While the sick disabled and old live on the bread line
or are been persecuted by the DWP

In order to save money on spending in this country :-( :-(

Deep sigh....

Honestly, I don't know.
On the one hand it does seem that rules/laws are being imposed on us without our consent by an unelected European Commisson.

On the other hand, we do have favourable trade ties with the EU. The USA would prefer us to remain in as it gives them a toe-hold via our UK/US relationship. Would they still be interested if we were 'out'?

Er, in 1939 we weren't exactly alone, we had Australia, Canada, NZ, India etc with us.

Where does the idea that the Commission is unelected come from? It is elected by the European Parliament which we elect.

Is it? Well, how about that then. Not something that's widely publicised, it it? :-S

The rules aren't being imposed on us - that's what we're being told.
One example - Cameron says the increase in pension age was imposed by the EU.
It wasn't.
It may have been a suggestion, but it wasn't imposed, as is evident as both France and Germany have 'opted out'.
His other 'reason' is the increase in people living longer - but since 2012, the number of elderly people (especially women) dying has increased year on year. Last year the number of deaths was about the same as it was after WWII.

From the conception of the ECC, Edit - EEC - it seems that other countries 'opted out' of things they didn't consider worth. Our Civil Servants told us we should follow them.

I never wanted in so I definitely want out

Before we joined
we where getting very cheep Lamb from New Zealand
we had free trade with many Countries
Since we joined Food prices went up over night

I thought when we joined if a tin of peas cost 25p in England( an example )
they would cost the same in every EEC country ect
this was not the case :-( :-(

Also our farmers are going out of Business
and companies are shutting down
Because we no longer have the ability to grow or make
the goods we need
Yet the other counties such as France and Germany have flourished
as the German steel industry Has :-( :-(
Even ot Ports except one are owned by the French :-(

The European Commission doesn't appear to be elected.

The European Commission consists of 28 members, one from each EU country.

....as from 1 November 2014, the Commission is to be made up of a number of members corresponding to two-thirds of the number of EU countries....

....EU countries so that each one of them would continue to be entitled to *nominate* a member of the Commission.....
22 May 2013 (Decision 2013/272/EU).

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/summary/glossary/commission_composition.html

What we don't have is people willing to pay a fair price for their milk, or their eggs etc, we buy huge quantities of tat from China, electronics from the east, clothes from India etc ( you only have to look at Primark and how busy it always is to know that what people want is NOT 'British made ' it is 'CHEAP' !) . We don't want to pay twice as much for goods made here, and we don't want to work for a few quid an hour in a sweatshop so that clothes can still be made here in the mills of Bradford or Manchester at a comparable price.

Does anyone honestly think that Europe owns us? more likely to be the Chinese who are going to build HS2 and the next nuclear power station. Coming out of Europe won't see a return to some laa laa land of full productivity and milk and honey for all.

I'm not saying we should stay in or come out...just that either way it's not going to be like waving a magic wand and all the problems will just disappear.

I would elect to stay in for various reasons.

I rather like the idea of going to a European country for holiday (or business) without having to fork out for visas for countries I need to travel to.

I would not like our manufacturers to have to pay duties to be able to export their goods to Europe. They may decide to shift manufacturing to a member country, leaving more out of work here, something we, in this country, have come to dread. We lose manufacturing at our peril. The clothes industry is a prime example. For a long time we have had extremely cheap clothing in our store at the expense of the poor in other countries. Now there is a move to abolish what almost amounts to slave labour in those countries, and rightly so, what do you think our clothes will cost ten years down the line? We have all but lost the machinery for manufacturing clothes and our dependency on other countries for providing clothing is not to be proud of. In the same way, not only could we lose the ability to manufacture other things, such as cars for example, we could lose the equipment necessary in order to do so and who would risk starting up such an enterprise from scratch?

Other reasons include the fact that we have more clout being part of a group, in the same way that the Asia-Pacific region has, rather than one small nation taking on the big boys.

Where’s your mama gone? (Where’s your mama gone?)
Little baby Don (Little Baby Don)
Where’s your mama gone? (Where’s your mama gone?)
Far, far away

Where’s your papa gone? (Where’s your papa gone?)
Little baby Don (Little baby Don)
Where’s your papa gone? (Where’s your papa gone?)
Far, far away
Far, far away

Last night, I heard my mama singing a song
Ooh-We, Chirpy, Chirpy, Cheep, Cheep
Woke up this morning and my mama was gone
Ooh-We, Chirpy, Chirpy, Cheep, Cheep
Chirpy, Chirpy, Cheep, Cheep, Chirp

Where’s your mama gone? (Where’s your mama gone?)
Little baby Don (Little Baby Don)
Where’s your mama gone? (Where’s your mama gone?)
Far, far away

Where’s your papa gone? (Where’s your papa gone?)
Little baby Don (Little baby Don)
Where’s your papa gone? (Where’s your papa gone?)
Far, far away
Far, far away

who the fk is going to hitch their star to a bunch of airheads and chancers such as George Galloway, Kate Hoey, Michael Gove, IDS, Carswell, Nigel Farage and the grey financiers funding the various out movements and UKIP. They don't give a ts about democracy being rather more inclined to authoritarian fascist government. The EU thwarts their dreams all along the line. That is primarily what it was set up for not as a trading bloc that came later.

"This machine kills fascists"

Cameron never wanted any sort of referendum. Churchill called them a device of dictators while Margaret Thatcher was also strongly opposed on the grounds that a referendum was for the rabble who could not get their argument through the House of Commons in a normal way. She wasn't soft on the EU.

The world's oldest true democracy, the USA, has managed 200 years without any referendum.

Cameron ha scored a Bismark level hit through his removal of the City of London from envious fingers of Paris and Frankfurt. Long after the immigration nonsense has been forgotten London and the UK will be taking benefit from that especially with the UK remaining within the EU.

All the huffing and puffing about immigration is a nonsense, the "outs" are at least right about that. The amount of money spent on child benefit to Poles with parents working in the UK is miniscule. Unfair for sure but it is not an issue demanding a full on conference.

Most of the EU citizens working in the UK don't claim any benefits at all - the 350 000 French for instance have a median income of around £ 70 k!

A country where so many of the natives are semi-skilled at best and dislike hard, dirty work is bound to import labour for its farms, to drive buses, build Crossway and on the other hand skilled technicians, engineers, financial geeks and health professionals. These people will keep on flooding into London and Berlin because that is where the action is in today's Europe. Stopping that would be to emulate King Canute.

Outside of the EU the UK would have to submit to free movement in any case as Norway and Switzerland have discovered as part of the bill for access to the single market (invented by M Thatcher). They also have to pay around 80% of the fees of a full member and abide by all of the rules without any input whatsoever. Is this what the "outs" mean by seizing our own destiny?

A modern BMW has 30-40% parts made in the UK - the renaissance of car making in the UK has also brought skilled component mfg back to live - good jobs, good money. Without the just-in-time conveyor only possible within the EU the UK would lose this sort of thing very quickly.

Winding the clock back to some far off time when Rosy Scenario held sway is not going to happen.

I voted in the 1975 referendum. For months before the vote the "nos" held a lead of > 20%. On polling day it disappeared like the morning mist and the "yes" side won with a 20% majority.

The same will happen this time and for the same reason. The "out " camp simply cannot come up with a feasible plan for what they would do once out. Rhetoric and claiming that the EU will come begging simply don't cut it.

cheep cheep

:-) @ Rollo for the succinct summary,

:-| @ Rollo because I am now going to have Middle of the Road's entire repertoire buzzing round my head all night :-)

From the website
http://ec.europa.eu/about/index_en.htm

A new team of 28 Commissioners (one from each EU Member State) is appointed every five years.

The candidate for President of the Commission is proposed to the European Parliament by the European Council that decides by qualified majority and taking into account the elections to the European Parliament.

The Commission President is then ELECTED by the European Parliament by a majority of its component members (which corresponds to at least 376 out of 751 votes).

Following this ELECTION, the President-elect selects the 27 other members of the Commission, on the basis of the suggestions made by Member States. The final list of Commissioners-designate has then to be agreed between the President-elect and the Council. The Commission as a whole needs the Parliament's consent. Prior to this, Commissioners-designate are assessed by the European Parliament committees.

-------------

True the individual commissioners are not directly elected by the electorate of the country they represent but they are picked by the head of government of that state.

On that basis you could say that the cabinet is unelected and we have had unelected prime ministers (Douglas-Hume, Callaghan and Brown).