Find Ancestors

ok first with my grandad
his francis lee born 1919 died 1980
his dad was francis lee 1899 he married christina caroline barker,
his dad was zacharia lee 1844-1910 married louisa williamson 1859-? mariage ?
his dad was job lee 1821- 1910 married maria 1922 marriage?
his dad zachariah lee 1797-1899 married rosetta ? 1801
his dad david lee 1762 married sophy/sophie stanley 1765

were believed to have settled in custom house heard of cherry island in 1850's i heard that had stables in leys rd? links martindale rd custom house?

now for my nan amelia ellen mccabe
also romany gypsy daughter of jane barnard (maiden name) sidney mccabe (father)
janes parents are amelia maria (lovage) and joesph barnard,
some how have links with steele and taylors any advise welcome.
also have links to a belchor lee phielas lee maybe a amos taylor close links to i know jane barnards sisters were betsy (robinson) rose (walsh) had brother known as boxer, charlie barnard and john barnard

which country are we dealing with?

Aha! I just searched for "amelia maria lovage" after seeing your post in Sue in Sunny Worthing's thread about her Barnards.

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards.asp?wci=thread&tk=1021885

In that thread, I linked to this one that I remembered:

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards.asp?wci=thread&tk=1021885

"I'm trying to find any information on Elizabeth Barnard, born around 1892 in Hoo, Kent, so I was led to believe. She married a romany man called Phineas Lee and they had children called Jane,Rose, Robert (Bobby) and Emily. I know they eventually lived, in what was known at the time as Cherry Island-Plaistow"

It sounds a lot like you and Sharon have the same Barnards and Lees. You have "phielas lee" -- Phineas?

Unfortunately your post is a bit too much just a bunch of names strung together when it comes to the Barnard-Lee connection. But you might want to put your head together with Sharon and see you might have in common.

Do try to punctuate your sentences, or maybe just put separate thoughts on separate lines. It's really hard to make sense of run-on thoughts like:

"also have links to a belchor lee phielas lee maybe a amos taylor close links to i know jane barnards sisters were betsy (robinson) rose (walsh) had brother known as boxer, charlie barnard and john barnard"

I can't make head nor tails of that one!

Romany and traveller family history society
http://website.lineone.net/~rtfhs/contents.html

Try Rootschat click on Travelling people, maybe of some help.

Malibu. (Kushty bok)

Thank you for the replies and i see what you mean about confusing. Sorry about that.

Amelia Maria Lovage married Joseph Barnard in 1902 in Dartford Kent,
They had the following children:
Jane Amelia Barnard 1903 Dartford
Rose Barnard 1906 Dartford
Betsy Barnard 1908 maidstone
known as Boxer about 1910-1914 either born in Kent or West Ham, Essex.
Charles Barnard 1915 West Ham
John Barnard 1925

Phineas Lee married Betsy Barnard in 1911.
Phineas (1891) is the son of David Lee (1842)
David is son of Zachariah Lee (1779) Zachariah is my 4* g-grandfather

Belcher Lee (1851) is the son of Sylvester Lee (1826)
Sylvester is the son of Zachariah lee (1779)

I have found lots of information on the Lee side via Census and parish records and Help from other Lee members thank you.
I have also started finding information on the Lovage side,

but it is the Barnard side that is giving my headaches so anyone with links, help or advice to the Barnards would be greatly welcomed.
have joined a few romany and travllers sites.
take care
Paula

Hi Paula - what I was trying to do was direct you to the person with the same couple as you:

Phineas Lee married Betsy Barnard in 1911.

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards.asp?wci=thread&tk=1021885


You two seem to be in the same boat there, but maybe two heads?

You can send her a private message via her name in that thread if you want to catch her eye.

If we just look at the Barnard

you say
Joseph Barnard is the father of Betsy who was born 1908 in Maidestone
but you say she married in 1911?

is that right?

V.

is this Betsy?
Name: Betsy Louisa Barnard
Year of Registration: 1907
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
District: Maidstone
County: Kent
Volume: 2a
Page: 830 (

marriage
Surname First name(s) District Vol Page

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marriages Sep 1911 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Barber Elizabeth W. Ham 4a 399
BARNARD Betsy W.Ham 4a 399
Lee Phineas W. Ham 4a 399
Stone Alfred J W.Ham 4a 399

have you ordered this certificate?
this can't be the same betsy, the other message suggests that her actual name is Elizabeth b1892 Hoo Kent

Births Mar 1903 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Barnard Jane Amelia Dartford 2a 599

married Sidney McCabe West Ham June 1922

marriage of Josph and Amelia
Surname First name(s) District Vol Page

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marriages Sep 1902 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Barnard Joseph Dartford 2a 1215
Blight Lotty Dartford 2a 1215
Jennings George Dartford 2a 1215
Lovage Amelia Maria Dartford 2a 1215

1901 Amelia Lovage
Name: Amelia Lovage
Age: 19
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1882
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: William
Mother's Name: Marie
Gender: Female
Where born: Erith, Kent, England

Civil Parish: Bexley
Ecclesiastical parish: Christchurch
County/Island: Kent
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View Image

Registration district: Dartford
Sub registration district: Bexley
ED, institution, or vessel: 15
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 16
Household Members: Name Age
William Lovage 53 b. 1848 Northfleet kent agricultural labourer
Marie Lovage 55 b. 1846 Crayford Kent
Amelia Lovage 19
George Lovage 9
Charles Marchant 29 son in law
Charles Marchant 6 grandson


Source Citation: Class: RG13; Piece: 696; Folio: 138; Page: 3.

Source Information

Betsy Lousia Barnards marriage
Surname First name(s) Spouse District Vol Page

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marriages Mar 1927 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BARNARD Betsy L Robinson W.Ham 4a 187
KNIGHTS Winifred E McCARTNEY W. Ham 4a 187
McCartney Daniel R Knights W.Ham 4a 187
ROBINSON Joseph H BARNARD W. Ham 4a 187

The Betsy who married Phineas Lee is most likely Joseph's sister or other relation.

if you order the certs you'll get father's names, ages etc

confusing i know lol
betsy louisa Barnard born 1907 in maidstone kent
and Betsy Barnard who married phineas Lee 1911
are not the same person.
Joseph and betsy louisa are father and daughter.
Joseph and Betsy not sure there, maybe Brother and sister or cousins

Evie, i have been in contact with sharon but we both seem to be lost shes looking for information on betsy barnard born about 1890 and i am looking for joseph barnard born about 1880. tried census using joseph and Betsy but no links so far hoping to find parents.
thank you for the link

all i do know is betsy, jane, rose, charlie, joe, jack/john are common barnard names

I know from joseph down i cant even trace birth am trying older realitives to see if they can recall, any information.

Thank you all for the feed back really appricated.

I'm still feeling muddled.


"Phineas Lee married Betsy Barnard in 1911.
Phineas (1891) is the son of David Lee (1842)
David is son of Zachariah Lee (1779) Zachariah is my 4* g-grandfather"

Sharon is looking for information on betsy barnard born about 1890
You are looking for joseph barnard born about 1880


But Betsy Barnard born about 1890 - who married Phineas Lee - is your grx2 grandmother?

And ha. In my experience, all Barnards in all places and all times are Richard, Thomas and Benjamin. They're the non-Roma ones, I guess. ;)

Hasn't somebody got the Betsy Barnard + Phineas Lee marriage cert yet to get her parents' names?

Oh - and the Joseph Barnard + Lovage marriage certificate? You're looking for him in censuses without knowing what his father's name is? Or am I missing it?


All Barnards must be mistranscribed as Barnett at least once in their lives.
Have you considered these?

1901

Civil Parish: Orpington
Town: Orpington
County/Island: Kent
Registration district: Bromley

Charles Barnett 48 - farm labourer, born Chelmsford
Louisa Barnett 45 - born Norwich
> Joseph Barnett 18 - plate layer railway, born Edmonton
John Barnett 16 - horse man on farm, born Edmonton
William Barnett 14 - born Edmonton
> Betsy Barnett 10 - born Edmonton
Rose Barnett 9 months - born Orpington


Various points fit.

But nah, they were Barnett in 1891 in Edmonton too ...

Although ... in 1891 Charles was a general labourer and Louisa was a fruit hawker. Still fits ...

Looking for Betsy Barnard in 1911, we have two in West Ham -- yours (the daughter of Barnard and Lovage) and the one who married Phineas Lee.

Looking in West Ham for Barnards in a household where there is a Betsy Barnard, and hiving off the ones who aren't part of the Barnard-Lovage crew, we get:

BARNARD CHARLES M 1853 58 West Ham Essex
BARNARD LOUISA F 1857 54 West Ham Essex
BARNARD BETSY F 1889 22 West Ham Essex
BARNARD JANE F 1896 15 West Ham Essex
BARNARD ROSE F 1898 13 West Ham Essex

Compare and contrast with the 1901 Barnett household:

Charles Barnett 48
Louisa Barnett 45
Betsy Barnett 10
Rose Barnett 9 months

Eerie similarity, I'd say.

is the Joseph Barnard the father of Betsy Louisa the one you are looking for.


if so buy the marriage cert of Joseph and Amelia Lovage.

The 1901 Barnett household has a Rose:

Name: Rose Barnett
Age: 9 months
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1900
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Charles
Where born: Orpington, Kent, England

There's no Rose Barnett birth to match, but there sure is a Rose Barnard:

Births Sep 1900
Barnard Rose Bromley 2a 498