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(hope that didn't sound patronising, you seem to turn new angles up where I stare at the same thing for weeks without anything clicking).

it's only a case of experience and thinking a bit 'outside the box' - have been looking at stuff for 7 yrs

I agree that the Samuel you have in 1851 has to be the right one if the marriage to Ellen is right. There can't be too many silk throwsters in Salford called Samuel and married to Ellen

from your carter thread

"He has received a document confirming that his great great great Grandad Samuel was Christened at Manchester Cathedral on 19th august 1821, and that...(hereto unknown for sure), his father was called John Morris and his mother was called Martha."

what document was that please?

Are you sure it is right cos there is more than 1 Samuel father John

there is also a mary (b 1813) parents John & Elizabeth but not found one with parents John & martha

Ann, please check your messages.

Ann my Auntie Pat in Manchester also researching this sent me an email with a scanned copy of a document called an IGI Individual Record , it says "Family Search International Genealogical Index, British Isles". It says their website is by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints" -

Pedigree- Samuel Morris
event - Christening: 19 Aug 1821, Cathedral, Manchester, Lancs.

Parents - Father - John
Mother - Martha.
Extracted birth or Chistening records for the locally listed in the record."


Now this is why I started this thread because it was my Auntie who originally proposed Samuel as my great great grandad.

I am not at all sure that the above is right, and my gut instinct is telling me that Martha is wrong.

It is the ONLY time that name appears anywhere in our family which is a big sprawling one. My guts are telling me this is wrong.

I am waiting for Samuel son William Henry's marriage cert.

Joe there are two marriages about the time of Samuel's birth of a John Morris to a Martha.

JOHN MORRIS Pedigree
Male Family

Marriages:
Spouse: MARTHA CLARE Family
Marriage: 01 JUL 1823 Warrington, Lancashire, England

Messages:
Extracted marriage record for locality listed in the record.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
JOHN MORRIS Pedigree
Male Family
Marriages:
Spouse: MARTHA WOOD Family
Marriage: 23 APR 1821 Saint Michael, Ashton Under Lyne, Lancashire, England

Messages:
Extracted marriage record for locality listed in the record.

Thank you Mel, but I am not happy with the name Martha at all.

Is there anything on John's profession ( Cordwainer) ?

You see, I found the marriage above to Elizabeth Bradshaw in 1814 and he was a Cordwainer.

A Cordwainer is a shoe maker.

Hi Joe

Some of the information found on this thread was found on free sites. Try looking at

www.lan-opc.org.uk
www.familysearch.org

The above hold parish records and IGI

www.freebmd.org.uk For BMD's index after 1837
www.LancashireBMD.org.uk also have free BMD index after 1837
www.freecen.org.uk have some free census records

Good luck with your search

I know Mel, I was just hoping those two John's you came up with might have confirmed he was a Cordwainer?

Thanks for those links Tooty, Onwards and Sideways!

on lan-opc those 2 marriages to a Martha do not show an occupation for John but in both cases john was 'of this parish' and as your John seems to have always been around Manchester/chorlton they do not seem likely

I agree Ann

did your Auntie Pat say why she thought it was that birth from the IGI and not this one??

SAMUEL MORRIS
Christening: 14 JAN 1821 Manchester, Lancashire, England

Parents:
Father: JOHN MORRIS
Mother: ELIZABETH

or even this one (I forget where the name John as Samuel's father came from)


EDIT - sorry found the ref - Sam's marriage

SAMUEL MORRIS
Christening: 05 DEC 1824 Manchester, Lancashire, England

Parents:
Father: RICHARD MORRIS
Mother: BETTY

No Ann, she didn't, but the reason why I prefer yours is that Samuel's marriage cert gives his father as John Morris, Cordwainer, and there is an 1814 marriage for John Morris and Elizabeth Bradshaw , at Collegiate, Manchester, on --

http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/ ( search (left) Manchester and 'Whole county".

where did you find that top one for 1821?

ps-

that 1814 marriage i mention above gives John Morris as Cordwainer.

on familysearch.org

we seem to be going in circles with this

perhaps we had better wait until you have William Henry's marriage cert to seeif that gives any more clues

Agreed, I am dizzy too. I will come back when I get the certificate.

but....

the date for the Samuel Christening you gave at 14.12 should have been

14 Jan 1820, not 1821.

" residence: Manchester, Lancashire, England
parents: John Morris, Eliza Morris

record title: England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
name: Samuel Morris
gender: Male
baptism/christening date: 14 Jan 1820
baptism/christening place: Collegiate Church, Manchester, Lancaster, England
father's name: John Morris
mother's name: Eliza Morris
indexing project (batch) number: C02938-7
system origin: England-EASy
source film number: 1545580 ".

one of them has possibly been misinterpreted - the one I gave was copied & pasted direct from familysearch.org

I suspect yours is the correct one as the IGI one is not a direct transcription

I'm not sure Ann, maybe there is another one too? If you copied and pasted it is probably correct. Anyway, I suppose it's by the by until I get more info.
The thing is, there is no way of finding out Sam's mother's maiden name is there? Even his marriage cert wouldn't have that , would it? And i guess birth certs are not available from the 1820's, so..not sure what to do.