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Hi, Im looking for any help with trying to locate Irving family. My father was edward Irving, born 14 aug 1925. mothers maiden name was Bates. My father married an Edna Boatswain in Bournemouth in 1953 and gives his fathers name as Edward Peter Irving. sadly he passed away in Queens Park Hospital, blackburn in 1996. My Father seems to have had 5 brothers and sisters, agnes W born 1918, Edna M 1923, Terence 1927, winifred J 1929 and Robert J 1931. the problem is that i can not seem to find a marriage entry for an Edward Peter Irving to a bates and thus i am stuck at trying to find my Grand mothers full name. I am in touch with the liverpool register but they are having troubles locating my fathers birth cert although i have a reference number for it, i would be grateful for any help with this matter, thankyou Dave irving

Any good???

Marriages Jun 1917 (>99%)
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Irving Edward P Bates Winifred E ........... W.Derby 8b 437

Is this the one you found....

Births Dec 1925 (>99%)
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Irving Edward ......... Bates...... W.Derby 8b 1026


Regards Vera

Married at Emmanuel Church Everton...(according to Lancs BMD.)
Records Held L'Pool Records Office.

Winifred name seems the most plausible. and yes that is the ref that i have thankyou Vera and Thankyou eringobragh for that information.

Another child Dorothy Irving birth Reg March 1920...8b 1343.West Derby.


1911 Census index (L'Pool) shows only 1 Winifred E (Emily) Bates living West Derby.....born Birkenhead

thankyou for all the info, its a great help. the reason i couldnt find a match on GR for the marriage cert is because it comes up showing edward p irving being married to a william r bates but the ref code 8b 437 is there. my father was a quiet man and didnt speak a lot of his time as a child and i can not remember ever meeting any of his family ie my uncles aunts ect. he spoke of having about 12 brothers and sisters and that he was placed in an orphanage but thats about the limit of my knowledge of his younger life but once again thanks to you all for your help.

David ...Your more than welcome.,...

You are not alone in the situation of not knowing about previous generations...the same story repeats itself ....No one spoke about anyone.....just check out some of the queries on here..!!

once again thanks for your help. after a bit of research it seems that Winifred was in some sort of hospital in the 1911 cencus and that if i have the correct edward p irving he was the son of a school teacher. both seem to be born 1903 so if this is my grandparents they were only 14/15 years old at the time of getting married. was this a legal age to get married back then?

David...I dont have access to the Census to check anything for you but the index (above in the tool bar) shows the one I was referring to...

1911...

Bates Winifred Emily 1896 Birkenhead Cheshire West Derby.
I have not yet located an Edward P....

Why dont you ask someone to check them out for you if you dont have access yourself.

once again thankyou, its a bit of a conundrum, i have found W.E who you refer to but cannot find a connectoin to E.P irving i have found a W.E born in 1903 and a edward peter Staddart irving born in 1903 married in 1917 but this makes them at appx 14/15 years old, his father was a well to do school teacher in birkenhead with servants n the house and this may sound prudish but i cannot see a school teacher allowing his 14/15 year old son marry a girl from an orphanage. im new to this family stuff, and i hope im posting this right, i would like to try and keep in contact just to let you know if i ever get to the bottom of it , lol is there anyway we can add each other to contacts

Get this marriag certificate:

http://www.ukbmdsearch.org.uk/certapp.php?type=marriages&data=IRVING%7cEdward%20P%7cBATES%7cWinifred%20E%7cEverton%2c%20Emmanuel%7cLiverpool%7c1917%7c1917%7c%7cLL%3a2100WD%2f4%2f481%7cI%7c9548%7clancashire%7cLL&lang=

My earlier message seems to have gone astray but until 1929 the marriagable age was 14 for boys and 12 for girls.

from ancestry

Liverpool, Lancashire, England, Marriages and Banns, 1813-1921 about Winafred Emily Bates

Name: Winafred Emily Bates
Birth Year: abt 1896
Age: 21
Marriage Date: 13 May 1917
Parish: Everton Emmanuel
Spouse's Name: Edward Peter Irving
Father's Name: Theophilus Bates
Spouse Father's Name: Edward Irving


from image:-

Edward:-
Bachelor
Occupation:- Lance Corporal, K.L.R
Address:- 5 Severs Grove
Father:- deceased, Sailor

Winifred:-
Spinster
no occupaton shown
Address:- 5 Severs grove
Father:-Jobber

Witnesses:- Charles Percy Bates and Margaret Green




so the two you found are NOT your grandparents.


If Edward was 28, it means he was born ca 1890 +/ 2 years, and Winifred was born in 1896.


Incidentally, it is Winifred on the certificate ...... the Winafred is a mis-transcription





sylvia

I wonder if this could possibly be your grandfather's burial???


Liverpool, Lancashire, England, Catholic Burials, 1813-1988 about Edward Peter Irving

Name: Edward Peter Irving
Burial Date: 19 May 1938
Parish: Ford Cemetery


from image of cemetery record:-

Age:- 51
Address:- 107 Rice Lane
Grave:- 3161



age 51 in 1938 suggests a birth year of ca 1887

age 28 on marriage in 1917 suggests a birth year of ca 1887



Circumstantial evidence until you can find out more!





sylvia

from ancestry


Winifred in 1901

1901 Census

Name: Winifred Bates
Age: 4
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1897
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Theophilus Bates
Mother's Name: Bessie Bates
Gender: Female
Where born: Birkenhead, Cheshire, England

Civil parish: West Derby
Ecclesiastical parish: Stoneycroft All Saints
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Registration district: West Derby
Sub-registration district: West Derby, Eastern

Theophilus Bates 41 b.ca 1860, Liverpool, Carter on Nursery
Bessie Bates 38 b.ca 1863, At Sea [on] British Ship
William Bates 14 b.ca 1887, Liverpool, Painter's Apprentice
Percival Bates 11 b.ca 1890, Liverpool
Winifred Bates 4

Address:- 5 Tanhouse (??sp) Lane



sylvia

from ancestry

Liverpool, Lancashire, England, Marriages and Banns, 1813-1921 about Theophilus Tunstall Bates

Name: Theophilus Tunstall Bates
Age: Full Age
Marriage Date: 26 Sep 1883
Parish: Edge Hill St Cyprian
Spouse's Name: Bessie Hamilton
Father's Name: William Tunstall Bates
Spouse Father's Name: ---- Hamilton (deceased)

Theophilus:-
Occupation:- dyer


Theophilus' baptism

Liverpool, Lancashire, England, Baptisms, 1813-1906 about Theophilas Bates

Name: Theophilas Bates
Birth Date: abt 1859
Baptism Date: 25 Dec 1859
Parish: Liverpool St Silas, Pembroke Place
Father's Name: William Janstall Bates
Mother's Name: Julia Emma Bates



father's name on actual register is William Tunstall Bates


Address:- 29 Ashton Street
Father Occupation:- Dyer




sylvia

again, a possible find

from ancestry

WW1 records.


Just a suggestion that this might be your grandfather


British Army WWI Pension Records 1914-1920 about Edward Peter Irving

Name: Edward Peter Irving
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1887
Age at enlistment: 25
Birth Parish: Liverpool
Birth County: Lancashire
Document Year: 1912
Regimental Number: 1537
Regiment Name: 8th (Irish) Back. L. Regiment
Number of images: 5


According to one of the images, the regiment is actually 8th (Irish) Batt. "The King's" (L'pool Reg't)


He was 5' 4½" tall

Joined on 24 -4-1912

Discharged as medically unfit on 8-11-1914



THIS Edward Peter lists his next of kin as Nephew James Cain, 5 Kiffin St (???spelling).

Before enlisting, he was a Coal Hewer





needs very careful checking of course!




sylvia

David...Following on from what Sylvia has found for you..and presuming (should never really do that !!) the above being the correct family then this is the 1881 Census for Theo.T.Bates and family....Took some finding...note how his name is spelt..

Household:

Name Relation Marital Status Gender Age Birthplace Occupation Disability
William BATES Head M Male 49 Liverpool, Lancashire, England Master Dyer
Julia E. BATES Wife M Female 49 Liverpool,
** Tophitus T. BATES*** Son U Male 21 Liverpool, Dyer (Undef)
Julia E. BATES Daur U Female 19 Liverpool, Formerly Scholar
Charles I. BATES Son U Male 15 Liverpool, Drapers Apprentice
Henry B. BATES Son U Male 13 Liverpool, Scholar
Eliza M. BATES Daur U Female 11 Liverpool, Scholar
Maka A. BATES Daur Female 7 Liverpool, Scholar
Margaret FLOOD Serv U Female 19 Ramsay, Isle of Man, England Domestic Servant


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Source Information:
Dwelling 150 Crown St
Census Place Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Family History Library Film 1341867
Public Records Office Reference RG11
Piece / Folio 3622 / 73
Page Number 3

thank you all for taking the time to find this info, i have found some of the info mentioned. i also found an winifred p bates in the 1911 census age 8 in an orphanage so born 1903 but cannot find a birth entry. and an edward p.s.irving born 1903 so until i can get my fathers birth cert and more info i wont fully know. liverpool city council allow you access to the microfilms (6 hour session for 20 euro) so it may be a trip across the irish sea to liverpool in the near future. tc and thanks