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Hi All
Im trying to find Caroline Russell I believe born in June 1897 and told she was born In Walwath.
I cannot find a single trace of her in births or Censuses. I would be gratefull for any help.

Hi John -- What/where is Walwath, if you wouldn't mind explaining?

I'm pretty good at finding stuff, but from the side of the ocean all I'm finding on google maps that looks like is Walworth, Durham. Would that be it?

Do you know anything about her at all -- a parent's name, a sibling's name, even her husband's name?

Sorry didnt check my spelling before submitting Walworth London.

Walter DeRose was Carolines husband.
Her marriage cert 1921 shows her father to be Joseph Russell an Undertaker.
I have her eldest sisters (Lydia) marriage cert which shows her father to be Alfred Joseph Russell a saw dust dealer.??
The story is that her father and mother died when she was an infant and her two eldest sisters brought her up. Lydia and Rose. Also by hearsay she had brothers James and Joseph.

I may have something for you ...

In 1891:


Name: Lydia Russell
Age: 2
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1889
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Alfred
Mother's Name: Lydia
Gender: Female
Where born: Newington, London, England

Civil Parish: Newington St Mary
Ecclesiastical parish: All Saints
Town: London City
County/Island: London
Country: England
Registration district: St Saviour Southwark
Sub-registration district: St Peter Walworth
ED, institution, or vessel: 15

Alfred Russell 25
Alfred Russell 2
Lydia Russell 22
Lydia Russell 2
Rosey Russell 3/12


Alfred Russell with daughters Lydia and Rosey, old enough to be your Caroline's big sisters.

By Jove, I think we've got 'em. Alfred was a Sawdust Dealer.

Hmm, might Caroline hae been younger than you thought? In 1901 --


Name: Lydia Russell
Age: 32
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1869
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: Alfred
Gender: Female
Where born: Croydon, London, England

Civil Parish: St George
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mary
Town: London
County/Island: London
Country: England
Registration district: St Saviour Southwark
Sub-registration district: Kent Road
ED, institution, or vessel: 13

Name Age
Alfred Russell 37
Alfred Russell 12
Lydia Russell 32
Lydia Russell 15


Alfred is still a Sawdust Dealer.

This looks likely for his death:


Name: Alfred Joseph Russell
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1862
Year of Registration: 1909
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
Age at Death: 47
District: Camberwell (1837-1919)
County: London, Surrey
Volume: 1d
Page: 450


Hard to spot a birth for Caroline.

You know what I'm wondering? Was she really a daughter of Lydia or Rose, and not of their parents?

This could be Lydia ...


Name: Gladys Lydia V Russell
Year of Registration: 1888
Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
District: Wandsworth
County: Greater London, London, Surrey
Volume: 1d
Page: 661


Here's a Rose:


Name: Rose Russell
Year of Registration: 1891
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
District: Wandsworth
County: Greater London, London, Surrey
Volume: 1d
Page: 718


but that would be a very late registration for a chlid who was 3 months in the 1891 census.

That Russell household was in Southwark in 1901, and that Alfred Joseph died in Camberwell.

Might this be Caroline?


Name: Caroline Sarah Russell
Year of Registration: 1896
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
District: Camberwell (1837-1919)
County: London, Surrey
Volume: 1d
Page: 950


Could be the parents marriage:


Marriages Mar 1886
**GREGORY Lydia St. Saviour 1d 150
Hunt Albert Edward St Saviour 1d 150
MONTAGUE Louisa Frances St. Saviour 1d 150
**RUSSELL Alfred St. Saviour 1d 150


Lydia Russell in the 1891/1901 was born in Crowydon c1869. In the 1881 there's a Lydia Gregory in Newington born c1868 in Bow. In the 1891, Lydia Jr.'s and Rosey's birthplace is reported as Newington.

Which still leaves us with the question -- if those people are Caroline's family -- where is Caroline in 1901??


This looks like it's probably the Caroline born in Cambwell in 1896, in the 1901:


Name: Caroline Russell
Age: 5
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1896
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Thos
Mother's Name: Victoria
Gender: Female
Where born: Camberwell, London, England

Civil Parish: Camberwell
Ecclesiastical parish: St Chrysostom
County/Island: London
Country: England

And for a completely different theory -- was Caroline *older* than you thought?


In 1901:


Name: Caroline Russell
Age: 8
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1893
Relation: Daughter
Mother's Name: Mary A
Gender: Female
Where born: Walworth, London, England

Civil Parish: Newington
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mark
County/Island: London
Country: England

Registration district: St Saviour Southwark
Sub-registration district: St Peter, Walworth
ED, institution, or vessel: 34
Household schedule number: 227

Francis Davies 31 - boarder, fruit hawker
James Linton 13
Alfred Russell 4
Caroline Russell 8
Charlotte Russell 10
Henry Russell 13
James Russell 7
Mary A Russell 36 -- married (no husband present), flower seller


I'm not having any luck with them in 1891. Children Charlotte and Henry seem to be fostered out, and I can't identify Mary.

This looks like that Mary in 1881:


Name: Mary Russell
Age: 19
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1862
Relation: Boarder
Gender: Female
Where born: St Lukes, Middlesex, England
Civil Parish: West Ham
County/Island: Essex
Country: England
Street address: 19 Montesquieu St
Occupation: Jute Spinner
Registration district: West Ham
Sub-registration district: West Ham


She's unmarried. And on the same page, we have a batch of other Russells: ... except they've been omitted from the transcription of the page by Ancestry ... three children whose parents ought to be on the preceding page, but the preceding page is a Clark household with Harris children.

Oh great. Ancestry has the page images out of order. The Russells are on page 11, the "preceding" page is page 12. Looking at page 10 ...

Charles and Mary Russell and 5 children, one of whom is a Charlotte.


Well this is an odd one. We have a household that matches all your details -- Alfred Russell, sawdust dealer, with children Lydia and Rose. And we have a Caroline who matches your details not badly -- born 1893 in Wandworth, with apparently unmarried mother Mary.


How about another theory? Caroline was the niece, not the daughter, of Alfred Russell.

I would bet that this is Mary in 1871 -- mother Caroline:


Name: Mary Ann Russell
Age: 5
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1866
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: George
Mother's Name: Caroline
Gender: Female
Where born: St Luke, Middlesex, England

Civil Parish: St Luke
Ecclesiastical parish: St Thomas Charterhouse
County/Island: London
Country: England

Registration district: Holborn
Sub-registration district: Whitecross Street
ED, institution, or vessel: 16
Household schedule number: 55

Caroline Russell 27
Edward Russell 3
Ellen Russell 1
George Russell 35
Mary Ann Russell 5


No Alfred, though.

Here's what looks like Alfred in 1871:


Name: Alfred Russell
Age: 8
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1863
Relation: Son
Mother's Name: Eliza M
Gender: Male
Where born: Southwark, Surrey, England

Civil Parish: St Paul Deptford
Ecclesiastical parish: Hatcham St James
Town: Deptford
County/Island: London
Country: England

Registration district: Greenwich
Sub-registration district: St Paul Deptford
ED, institution, or vessel: 42
Household schedule number: 32

Sarah Eacott 20
Alfred Russell 8
Anne M Russell 10
Edith A Russell 12
Eliza M Russell 45
Ellen Russell 14


No apparent connection.


I think I'm going to leave you to mull this over!

In case anybody's wondering -- John did PM me with the info in his second post up there, which I suggested he put in the thread for any helpers who happened by. I wasn't really just desperately seeking diversion from work. ;)

Thank you so very much for your help Kathryn.
All this information I dont know how you found it so quickly.
Still trying to get my head around it and Im sure lots of it fits. I am sending it to my sister to view. I will let you know how we get on once we have mulled it over more. Thanks so very much.
John

Just one question, John -- you're absolutely certain that Lydia and Rose are part of your family?? I'm assuming you or your parents actually knew them. ;)

If you come up with more info, or comments on any of this, just post it here -- the thread will pop up to the top of the list for me in "my threads", which makes it a lot easier to find than if you PM me and I have to go looking for the thread!

As for how to find it so quickly, you have to have a mind that works like a search engine. ;) And a search engine to work it on.

You gave a bunch of pieces of data -- the names Lydia and Rose especially, fortunately less common than Mary and Sarah. Search for one of them in the census database (I use Ancestry), with a guestimated age (I guessed young at first: 1890 to 1900), and find the two names together as sisters in a household, and you're probably onto something.

And just keep testing theories! That Caroline born in Wandworth looked like a good candidate, but when I searched for her in 1901, I found her with parents that didn't match any of your info. So she probably had to be ruled out.

And you watch for clues. That unmarried Mary Russell who might be your Caroline's mother had a mother named Caroline. Coincidence, or naming pattern?

I think we've found all the right people -- the question is: what is the connection between the two groups?

Alfred and Mary don't seem to have been siblings, so Lydia and Rose don't seem to have been Caroline's cousins. But it looks as if, at some point, Alfred took Caroline in, and she then stayed with Lydia and Rose.

It is possible that Alfred was really called Joseph, his middle name. People were often called by middle names, but sometimes put their formal first names on censuses.

... I've just looked at the images for a few Joseph Russells of the right age in the right vicinity to see whether there were any undertakers. No luck so far ... but I may have a look at the one whom Ancestry has transcribed as ... hold onto your hat ... a Copulation Officer. (He was a fireman, and a ditto to what may be "corporation officer".) No undertakers that I'm seeing.

So anyhow, get back once you and your sister have mulled it over and we'll see!

Just to give you a clearer picture....
Caroline was my grandmother on my mothers side. My mother Doris being an only child. Mum knew Lydia and Rose.
Lydia married a William ? Hughes had children Reg, Richard, Violet, and Lilian +
and died in 1946.
Rose married a walter Smith had children Rose ??? Thats about it I think
Thanks again for all this assistance.

Hi Kathryn
The 1901 and the 1881 census we think ties up well especially being a sawdust contractor.
The death cert for Alfred also good.
On more searching at the weekend we have come across this

Name: Charles Russell
Age: 42
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1829
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Caroline
Gender: Male
Where born: Bermondsey, Surrey, England

Civil Parish: St George The Martyr Southwark
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mary Magdalene
County/Island: London
Country: England




Registration district: St Saviour Southwark
Sub-registration district: Kent Road
ED, institution, or vessel: 9
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Alfred Russell 7
Caroline Russell 40
Charles Russell 42
Elizabeth Russell 4
Henry Russell 9
James Russell 16
Louisa Russell 2
Sarah Russell 13
William Russell 16

This the Young Alfred Russell with parents and a caroline but not the Caroline.

Looking through the others to check out.

Thanks for your help.

John

Yes indeed! A young Alfred who matches the one in 1901 etc., and has a mother Caroline. I should have pursued that, er, "-line" of enquiry a little further. ;)

Now if you can just figger out what his connection with Caroline the younger is ...!

Alfred could have been Carolines father
or her uncle ???

Marriages Mar 1886 (97%)
>>>>Gregory Lydia st saviour 1d150
Hunt Albert Edward st Saviour 1d 150
Montague Louisa Frances st Saviour 1d
>>>>Russell Alfred St Saviour 1d 150

Yes, you silly -- I copied that marriage way back on page one. ;)

But if Caroline was born before 1901, where is she in 1901??

Just wanted to mention that the Gladys Lydia birth I'd noted wasn't your Lydia; that Gladys Lydia is in the 1901 census being a different person.

Your Lydia was 15 in 1901. What's the chance that she was Caroline's mother?

Where's Rose in 1901? I can't identify her.

Maybe Lydia is this one? --

Name: Lydia Ann Russell
Year of Registration: 1895
Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
District: Wandsworth
County: Greater London, London, Surrey
Volume: 1d
Page: 720

Rose, dunno.

Could this be the birth of Rosey, who was 3 months old in the 1891?


Name: Rosy Russell
Year of Registration: 1891
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
District: Pancras (1837-1901)
County: London, Middlesex
Volume: 1b
Page: 54