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I am trying to find out details of the birth and family of t my grandfather for whom I cannot find any trace prior to his marriage.

Sidney Martin married Ethel Ede on 17th May 1922 at Stoke church, Guildford, Surrey. At that time he gave his age as 34, a bachelor in the Merchant Services and was living at the same address as his wife 3 Queens road, Guildford. His father Frederick Martin was deceased and an Independent as rank or profession.

The witnesses to the marriage were Fanny Ede mother of Ethel Ede and an Annie J Woods.

Their daughter Barbara Margaret Martin was born on 21st June 1924 and on her birth certificate their address was 41 North East Road, Sholing, Itchen, Hants. At that time Sidney Martin's profession was Wireman GPO.

Ethel Martin Died July-September 1930 age 39 ref 2c80 and following that Barbara was adopted by her sister Mabel and her husband Robert Hill.

Sidney wrote to Mabel and Robert Hill on black outlined paper (so presumably after Ethel's death) from Rosedale, 61 Clifton Road, Regents Park, Southampton and referred to Rose who wanted him to go to Hamble to visit.

On 7th September at the age of 47 Sidney married Florence Edith Fulford a widow. Their address was 61 Clifton Road and he gave his profession as Linesman Engineer (GPO Engineering Dept) and his father Frederick Martin as deceased and commercial traveller.

Sidney Martin died on 8th November 1933 in Southampton (2c31).

Both Ethel and Sidney Martin are buried at Hollybrook Cemetery, Tremona Road, Southampton in grave L10 165 which does not have a headstone

Probate was granted in January 1934 in which his estate devolved to his widow Florence Martin of 61 Clifton Road and Frederick Martin of 16 Moat Drive, Harrow Middlesex a printers warehouseman.

This Frederick Martin moved to Cramhurst Lane, Witley, Surrey during the 1950's and lived there with his wife Alice Sarah, John and Freda. They celebrated their 50th wedding before 7th February 1964 and Frederick Martin died on 10th Februarty 1974 aged 88 and Alice Sarah Martin died 2nd December 1978 at the age of 101 and both are buried in Witley churchyard with these details on their headstone. I remember visiting them as a child and wonder if he may have been Sidney Martin's brother.

I was also told by the son of the person who adopted Barbara that Sidney Martin was a merchant seaman on a White Star liner that was a sister ship of the Titanic.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Well Gay - top marks for giving such a comprehensive background.

What searches have you done to find the ancestors?

You could ask GRO to search for a BC which matches the information you have......assuming grandfather gave true information.

Someone will correct if wrong, but I believe that if you order a cert giving dob of 01/01/1888 (1922-34) and specifying father Frederick Martin, they will search for 3 years until they find one which matches.

The problem comes if the information you supplied isn't absolutely the same as is on a 'near' certificate, ie spelling or Frederick/Sidney as a middle name.

The possible relative
Frederick Martin
Birth Date: 11 Sep 1885
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1974
Age at Death: 88
Registration district: Surrey South Western
Inferred County: Surrey
Volume: 5g
Page: 1446
so you have his birth date (probably).

Only 18 births showing on free bmd, and only 5 with no second names.

Have checked Birth Records but none are obvious with Father's name as Frederick. Same with seamens cards

... I'm not seeing anything immediate in census records but will keep looking.

I'd certainly be inclined to order a copy of Frederick and Alice Sarah's marriage certificate to compare the father's details. Who were John and Freda?

Is this the marriage of Frederick to Alice?
Marriages Mar 1914
Frye Alice S Martin Chertsey 2a 63
MARTIN Frederick Frye Chertsey 2a 63

Freda?

Births Mar 1915 Martin Freda M Frye Hendon 3a 662
Births Sep 1916 Martin Frederick P Frye Hendon 3a 615

?
Births Mar 1915
Martin Freda M Frye Hendon 3a 662
Births Sep 1916
Martin Frederick P Frye Hendon 3a 615

PM from Gay
**************
That is problem it is quite a common name

Have checked birth records and I do not have any idea of area he came from. Also same with Seamens cards at Southampton & Kew

Worked on basis Frederick from Witley could be brother or cousin and have just received his marriage certficiate - married Alice Frye 1914 St John Baptist Church Byfleet - his address was Greenhills (barracks??) and his father was Frederick a clerk
*****************

?
1911
MARTIN, Frederick Single ? 25 1886 Soldier Ealing Town Middlesex

RG number: RG14 Piece: 34989 Reference: RG14PN34989 RD641 SD14 ED2 SN9999
Registration District: Sub District: Enumeration District:
2 Parish:
Address: Multan Punjaub India County: Overseas military

That is problem it is quite a common name

Have checked birth records and I do not have any idea of area he came from. Also same with Seamens cards at Southampton & Kew

Worked on basis Frederick from Witley could be brother or cousin and have just received his marriage certficiate - married Alice Frye 1914 St John Baptist Church Byfleet - his address was Greenhills (barracks??) and his father was Frederick a clerk

They did have a daughter Freda born in 1915 (have been to Witley to trace her or anyone who knew her when they were there in 1950-60's without success

Have you got Sidney's will, where his relationship to Frederick may be specified?

Gay, I'd be inclined to take your green tick off - there will be people later who do the "night shift" that may take a look at this. (If you go to the top of the thread there's a purple button to do so).

The will did not specify relationship to Frederick - referred to him as printers warehouseman

This is a Frederick born in Witley with father Frederick.
However, no Sidney, age probably a year out, and wrong profession for Father
1891 England Census
Frederick J Martin
Age: 6 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1885
Relation: Son Father's Name: Frederick J Martin
Mother's Name: Ellene Martin Gender: Male
Where born: Witley, Surrey, England
Civil parish: Witley Ecclesiastical parish: Milford Town: Milford
County/Island: Surrey Country: England
Street Address: Lady Cross Road
Registration district: Hambledon Sub-registration district: Witley
ED, institution, or vessel: 3 Piece: 571 Folio: 43 Page Number: 33

Frederick J Martin 38 Engine Driver Stationary
Ellene Martin 34
Frederick J Martin 6
Ernest H Martin 4
George Martin 2

Source Citation: Class: RG12; Piece: 571; Folio 43; Page 33; GSU roll: 6095681.

Yes have seen that census record and wondered if there was a connection - as yet have not found one - I think this family were in Compton at next census which is very close - not sure if one of son's could have changed name to Sidney and how one could find out :-S :-S

Going back to Sidney working for the White Star Line, there are over a dozen arrivals in New York for a Sidney Martin working on the Homeric (a White Star ship) during 1922/23. Birth date 1888, nationality British. Because he's crew there isn't so much information.

There are also numerous other entries on other ships but haven't yet determined if it's the same man.

Yes have seen these entries - Have had trouble tracking down White Star Line crew records - think some are held In Canada and a random amount were destroyed in 1960's

????
London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906 about Frederick Martin Martin
Name: Frederick Martin Martin
Record Type: Baptism
Estimated Birth Date: abt 1885
Baptism Date: 22 Nov 1885
Father's Name: Rederick Martin Occ:Traveler
Mother's Name: Kate Martin
Parish or Poor Law Union: Battersea St Peter
Borough: Wandsworth
Register Type: Parish Registers

Born Sept.12,1885
7 Meyrick Rd.
......
London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906 about Sidney Martin
Name: Sidney Martin
Record Type: Baptism
Estimated Birth Date: abt 1887
Baptism Date: 11 Sep 1887
Father's Name: Frederick Martin Occ:Traveller
Mother's Name: Kate Martin
Parish or Poor Law Union: Battersea St Peter
Borough: Wandsworth
Register Type: Parish Registers

Maureen